Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

My friend played this and asked me to post it here.

First hand of the event. Blinds are 25/25. 5000 starting chips.

2 folds and he raises to 100 with AQc.

just the BB calls (Chris Bigler).

Flop comes QJ5 rainbow. Chris checks, he bets 200, Chris calls.

Turn is another Q, completing the rainbow. Chris checks, he bets 500. Chris now check-raises to 1500 quickly.

My friend thinks for a second and calls.

River is a 7. Chris bets out 1500. Whats my friend's play and why?

-Scott

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

i call.

i think you're ahead there often enough that folding is bad, but i think KQ is just about the only worse hand that pays off if you push.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

Call. A reraise here is very very bad.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I would call and cry when he turns over 5's full. I'm not sure at what point you become pot committed on the first hand of a tourney, but calling here and having less than 50% of your chips left if you lose is a scary thought. Brutal decision for the first hand of a big buy-in tournament.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

It looks to me like your friend is beat, or Bigler (of whom I've never heard) is making a move with TT, or some such hand.

I actually think the turn decision is far more interesting. If he just calls, he has to expect Bigler to bet the river. There is no way Bigler is going to CR on a semi-bluff, and then give it up on the river when his opponent shows weakness by just calling. I think this is extremely read-dependent. Villain could certainly have JJ or QJ, or be running a pretty nifty bluff.

I don't think your friend can fold to the river bet - if he was ahead on the turn, he's certainly ahead on the river. But I also don't much like raising. Cry, call, and hope the villain has KQ.

Sam

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

IIRC Bigler is insanely tight.

If the above is true, I would contemplate checking behind on the turn and setting up either a river value bet from Bigler or a total bluff.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

This is either an early bully play or a QJ. I think this is about 60/40, sure he played it like a QJ, but he might have put hero on a pair and figured he could scare him off if he played it like a QJ.

I'm pretty sure it's a call. If you lay this down here you might as well just wear a sign that says please run over me.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

If this guy is tight you need to exercise some pot control in this hand and not get into a situation where you are playing this hand for your stack. I would definitely check behind the turn for a few reasons.

1) There arent many draws you are scared about. I mean, if he has KT he only has 4 outs and its probable this player would fold it before the flop.

2) Checking the turn allows you to value bet your hand and get called by worse ones. Bigler may make a call on the river here with AJ or something like that.

As the hero played the hand, I think you have to call the turn CR but I'm not sure. On the river you are likely beat and I hate this spot, which is why I'd be inclined to check the turn with AQ here. If I had AA I'd definitely be firing two barrels and folding to the turn CR.

-Jason

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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IIRC Bigler is insanely tight.


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Only against other pros at a final table.

Bigler is just like any other pro with a good bankroll he likes to bully early on. I wouldn't be shocked if he thinks the hero here is playing over his head and can run him off of his chips.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I call just in case he has QJ and has the boat, which could be a possibility with his play, but he could have KQ just as well and was trying to trap the whole time.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I fold. A pro like Bigler is not going to try and put a move on an unknown in hand #1 of a large buy-in WSOP event. Hero is representing the Q probably with an ace, so what can Bigler be thinking. This looks like a flopped set.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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I call just in case he has QJ and has the boat, which could be a possibility with his play, but he could have KQ just as well and was trying to trap the whole time.

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Ditto

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

His flat calling the flop raises the hairs on my neck.

The Q on the turn makes it more likely you're way ahead/way behind. Check behind on the turn. Flat call the river if it looks like a blocking bet. Value bet if he checks. Fold to a pot sized bet.
(probably lost to QJ or 55?)

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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Fold to a pot sized bet.


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if you take your line, there's no way you should fold to a pot-sized river bet.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I don't think villain gets into a pot with either KQ or QJ for 4XBB as they are likely to be dominated. I personally think its JJ as it will play much better than 55 after the flop.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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I don't think villain gets into a pot with either KQ or QJ for 4XBB as they are likely to be dominated. I personally think its JJ as it will play much better than 55 after the flop.

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i agree that 55/JJ are the most likely two hands (in that order, imo), but the bet to hero is less than 1/2 pot. hero doesn't even need to be right 1/4 to make the call correct. i think he'll win the hand more like 50%+.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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Fold to a pot sized bet.


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if you take your line, there's no way you should fold to a pot-sized river bet.

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why not? If the turn goes check/check then he leads the river for pot ...well, I guess it's weaktight but wouldn't he be more likely to use a 1/2 pot bet or so to push me off my hand if he's bluffing?

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I guarantee that for Chris Bigler (one of the best in the world at PLHE) to be putting 66% of his stack in the middle on the very first hand of a 2-day tournament, he has the nuts or very, very, very close to it. I doubt Bigler would play 55 or QJ out of position on hand #1, so he has JJ approximately 100% of the time. The absolute best-case scenario for your friend is that he has A-Q and a slpit-pot. This is a clear-as-day fold.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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IIRC Bigler is insanely tight.

If the above is true, I would contemplate checking behind on the turn and setting up either a river value bet from Bigler or a total bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this *really* what you would do in the heat of the moment after turning top trips/top kicker? Or are you *just posting* that this is what you would do? Not trying to flame.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I don't think the river decision is really much of a decision at all. At that point you should just call the bet... it's likely that Bigler has flopped a set and now you are beat, but there is enough of a chance that you are not to call here given the pot size.

That said, the real decision in my view is on the turn. When your friend calls the 1500 raise he has already decided that his hand is good and he needs to be willing to play for all of his chips. Bigler either has already made a full house on the turn or has an inferior hand to your friend. Not sure what I would do on the turn, but most likely I would just call it down and hope for the best.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

When your friend called the turn, he told Bigler that he was showing this hand down, and Bigler responded accordingly. Your friend is best case splitting the pot and very, very likely beat. This type of scenario has happened to me in three big tournies, and every time the pro showed the nuts. Pros don't try to push guys that have shown they are committed to the pot off of hands they cant beat.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

Yes, it's what I would do. Honest.

The rank of your hand means jack sh*t. You have to account for the flop texture, your opponent, his betting patterns, and the nature of this hand.

To make a more extreme example, it's like seeing an AAA flop. You're holding 22.

Your first thought should not be "omfg I turned a full house".

Likewise you should not be thinking AQ is the nuts against a tight player like bigler on a QJxQ board.

In making the above assumption, checking behind on the turn makes the most sense.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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IIRC Bigler is insanely tight.



[/ QUOTE ]

no

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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[ QUOTE ]
IIRC Bigler is insanely tight.



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no

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then im calling the river here now

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee that for Chris Bigler (one of the best in the world at PLHE) to be putting 66% of his stack in the middle on the very first hand of a 2-day tournament, he has the nuts or very, very, very close to it. I doubt Bigler would play 55 or QJ out of position on hand #1, so he has JJ approximately 100% of the time. The absolute best-case scenario for your friend is that he has A-Q and a slpit-pot. This is a clear-as-day fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

so actually what you're saying is that bigler is horrible.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

Interesting discussion, now im really curious to know what he had.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

hmm he CR the turn when it paired the top for T1500 and then he bets only 1500 on the river? Something is not right, against an unknown that seems to be almost married to this hand on the turn.

At this point I have to ask myself what Chris is Saving the rest of his chips for? Obviously he has to put the other guy on possibly a Q after the CR cold call. If so against an unknown I'd think he'd want to get most of that in if he does have a boat. Something isn't right with the river bet after the previous action, seems weakishly small and I'd think he'd get the rest of his T5k chips in there if he had any boat (possible exception being 5's full)

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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no

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k then

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I agree with strassa. I check behind on the turn. KT is the only likely draw, and an A gives you a full house, so I don't think a free card is likely to hurt.

On the river, you are more likely to get action if you are ahead, and you can get a cheaper showdown if you are behind.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee that for Chris Bigler (one of the best in the world at PLHE) to be putting 66% of his stack in the middle on the very first hand of a 2-day tournament, he has the nuts or very, very, very close to it. I doubt Bigler would play 55 or QJ out of position on hand #1, so he has JJ approximately 100% of the time. The absolute best-case scenario for your friend is that he has A-Q and a slpit-pot. This is a clear-as-day fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

so actually what you're saying is that bigler is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly does that follow?

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I guarantee that for Chris Bigler (one of the best in the world at PLHE) to be putting 66% of his stack in the middle on the very first hand of a 2-day tournament, he has the nuts or very, very, very close to it. I doubt Bigler would play 55 or QJ out of position on hand #1, so he has JJ approximately 100% of the time. The absolute best-case scenario for your friend is that he has A-Q and a slpit-pot. This is a clear-as-day fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

so actually what you're saying is that bigler is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly does that follow?

[/ QUOTE ]

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so he has JJ approximately 100% of the time.

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anyone this readable is horrible. and since he is apparently a "name" pro, i don't think he's horrible. hence, i don't think he's that readable.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

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hmm he CR the turn when it paired the top for T1500 and then he bets only 1500 on the river? Something is not right, against an unknown that seems to be almost married to this hand on the turn.

At this point I have to ask myself what Chris is Saving the rest of his chips for? Obviously he has to put the other guy on possibly a Q after the CR cold call. If so against an unknown I'd think he'd want to get most of that in if he does have a boat. Something isn't right with the river bet after the previous action, seems weakishly small and I'd think he'd get the rest of his T5k chips in there if he had any boat (possible exception being 5's full)

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I wholeheartedly disagree. That bet is perfectly crafted by a superior hand looking for a call. Bigler's read is that his opponent has a Q and he wants his hand to get paid. You have to keep in mind it cost $5000 to play in this event. Bigler knows the hero isn't going to be wild about losing his $5000 entry fee in one hand, so by going all-in on the end, the hero may fold quite a few hands with a Q (such as K-Q, Q-10, Q-9, and Q-8 for fear of losing to a superior Q-hand).

I see very good players make this kind of bet all the time when they want action...a bet that screams out "you should call me because your hand might be good AND YOU WON'T GO BROKE in this tournament even if it isn't." I'm sure Bigler would be prefectly happy increasing his stack from T5000 to T8300 on the very first hand of this event with blinds still at $25/$25.

--Z

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee that for Chris Bigler (one of the best in the world at PLHE) to be putting 66% of his stack in the middle on the very first hand of a 2-day tournament, he has the nuts or very, very, very close to it. I doubt Bigler would play 55 or QJ out of position on hand #1, so he has JJ approximately 100% of the time. The absolute best-case scenario for your friend is that he has A-Q and a slpit-pot. This is a clear-as-day fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

so actually what you're saying is that bigler is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly does that follow?

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so he has JJ approximately 100% of the time.

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anyone this readable is horrible. and since he is apparently a "name" pro, i don't think he's horrible. hence, i don't think he's that readable.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're missing the context here. This is the VERY FIRST HAND of an event that will take the better part of 20 hours to win. Chris Bigler certainly knows better than most that you can't win an event like this on the first hand, but you definitely can lose it. He isn't looking to be "unreadable" in hand #1 of blind limit #1. He also won't be looking to outplay any of his unknown opponents on hand #1. He's going to be playing perfectly straightforward A-B-C poker here for hours. For him to get $3300 of his stack in the middle on hand #1, when the blinds started at just $25 and $25, he can only have a handful of holdings, plain and simple.

--Z

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I also agree. Bigler would not stick his neck out against an unknown player without a big hand. I think most of the pros are more cautious versus the typical "internet" player.

I would also be worried about the cold call on the flop.

Be scared, be very scared.

Stipe

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

Anybody know the results?

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I almost always make a smaller bet on the flop and check behind the turn with stacks this deep. give me a showdown or give me death. Hero is very likely way ahead/way behind from the flop on.

Checking behind on the turn here is so clearly the correct play.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

OK, I'm far from smart when it comes to this level of poker, but can someone please explain:

a) Your friend calls the turn CR. If he doesn't think he ahead what is he doing in a $5,000 buy-in? He obviously can't call a 1,000 turn raise in a 2,625 pot with a mere 4 (or at the best 7) outs?

b) Your friend calls the turn CR. If he thinks he's ahead here NOTHING had changed at the river. What's the problem?

c) Your friend is obviously not a "name" player. Raising PF, betting the flop after Bigler's check and making a somewhat befuddled flat call on the paired turn should be within limits of what Bigler could expect a young unknown internet player in his first WSOP to do with a range of hands. My point: Bigler's river bet does not indicate he's pinned your friend to AQ.

d) I could interpret the turn CR as intimidation more than strength. And the river bet as well. The argument "giving [your friend] a chance to call with a losing hand without going broke" is exactly as good the other way around - if Bigler had moved in your friend could have been expected to put him on a steal.

Then again, I dont play $5,000 buy-ins.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

the river looks really easy. we're getting 2.41:1. I can't imagine were going to lay down here after calling the turn. Raising doesn't do us much good unless he has exactly KQ. I think calling here is the only reasonable play. I would guess that my hand is good here somewhere around half the time between the times that Bigler is running a bluff and the times that he thinks his KK/KQ/AA/QT is good. The obvious hand is 55/JJ or even QJ, but we are easily good here the 30% of the time we need to be.

Re: Hand from $5000 Pot limit WSOP event
 

I read in Terrence Chan's blog that Bigler had 55 for bottom set on this hand.

Results:
 

Thanks for all the replies.

My friend pushed all in on the river and Chris called.

Chris turned over 55 for the full house and my friend was walking.

I feel sorry for the rest of the table with Chris getting a big stack first hand.

-Scott