HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

I must be doing something wrong because this has been happening to me quite frequently this week.

Help is welcome anywhere you see it necessary.

Villain in this hand is: 53/6/1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">BB ($177.1)</font>
UTG ($30.74)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($84.3)</font>
Button ($94.33)
SB ($139.21)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $2.50, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($9) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $6</font>, SB calls $6, BB calls $6.

Turn: ($27) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $18</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $36</font>, Hero calls $18.

River: ($99) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $40</font>, Hero calls $39.30 (All-In).

Final Pot: $178.30

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

This looks fine. Just a bad beat. I don't think there's anyway I fold this river getting 3.4-1.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's anyway I fold this river getting 3.4-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was more worried about the earlier streets, I guess.

In retrospect, I think I should have made it 5 or so PF and maybe pushed on the turn.

Is the way I actually played it better than this line?

Does anyone else release this on the turn?

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

Pot the flop, maybe even bet $12. It's a draw-heavy board that you have no piece of. A smooth call should set you to thinking.

Since you posted, I can only assume that the villain had a five or a set that filled up on the turn. If a five that wasn't part of a spade draw or something, reload &amp; add to your buddy list. If a set... pwned? But a bigger flop bet would have put you in a very different position, I think.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

I think the flop bet is fine. I was reading Matt Matros's book in which he says that the best way to build a pot is to bet between 1/3rd and 2/3rds of the pot, so 2/3rds is pretty much my standard bet size in this situation. It gives bad odds to the first caller if he's drawing and usually picks up a call. I would've bet the full pot on the turn, because two callers is one too many + it prices both callers out of a flush draw. That five doesn't look particularly scary. I might have folded to that check minraise, but probably not.
Just bad luck I guess.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

How many hands do you have on him? Getting checkraised by a guy with an AF of 1.0 is somewhat alarming, but it depends on your read in the end.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

I'unno about that. Do you WANT to build a pot in this situation? Hero's hand is strong, but vulnerable, and he needs to find out where he's at in a hurry, unless he's cool with being stacked w/ aces every time he's behind with them.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since you posted, I can only assume that the villain had a five or a set that filled up on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He showed me K5 and I felt like I got punched in the face.

I got pwned alright.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands do you have on him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only about 100.

I thought about it too...

I just couldn't believe that he had played a hand with a 5 in it. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Now, I'll believe anything.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

Rag-ass two pair is unexpected, but not unreasonable, given his numbers. Was it at least sooooted?

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero's hand is strong, but vulnerable, and he needs to find out where he's at in a hurry, unless he's cool with being stacked w/ aces every time he's behind with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the heart of the problem for me. I am definitely NOT COOL with getting stacked holding aces.

It's been happening too much lately and I need to find out why.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

A bad stretch of luck, mostly, in all likelihood. If a lot of those scenarios are similar to this one, you should make sure you bet the flop stronger. I personally like to pot somewhat coordinated boards like this one whether I'm holding a strong top pair, overpair, or a strong draw, to obscure reads and make for tougher decisions. I however have a very aggressive style that creates its own set of problems, so this may not be for everybody.

Calling a push postflop with aces or kings in the pocket can be a very tough decision, especially in the case of a board that's coordinated, but not too coordinated, like this one. It's very important to have some idea of your man's tendencies so you can narrow his range of hands; the looser &amp; more aggressive, the more you should be inclined to pay him off. With no strong reads... well, you're really gonna have to go with what's in your gut. Given the size of the pot here I'd say you really can't lay down the river, but on my A game, I can see folding to the turn miniraise.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

Thanks for the reply.

I find that my best game comes out when I play aggressively as well.

[ QUOTE ]
I personally like to pot somewhat coordinated boards like this one whether I'm holding a strong top pair, overpair, or a strong draw, to obscure reads and make for tougher decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to do this, and it worked quite well, until I read Harrington. Maybe I misunderstood, but I think he was saying that you can accomplish the same thing with a 3/4 size bet.

He may be referring to tournaments though. I guess I have to go reread it.

He was saying that pot sized bets are too big because you want callers.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

It's sort of a metagame idea of mine, I guess. At the limits &amp; tables I play, I see people routinely pot/overpot their strong pairs versus flush draws; I like to represent the same action with a wider range of hands. I like to encourage steamrollers &amp; gambool types to take a shot at me by suggesting that I'm trying to kill the action because I don't want callers. Often I'll be holding a set or a powerful combo draw here, and if I'm played back at, I'm often gonna get my money in the middle and put them to some serious thought.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

Thanks.

This is kind of like what I was trying to suggest to soah in the other thread.

You said it much better though. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
Was it at least sooooted?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that you mention it, NO.

Thanks for the salt. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

What's with the uber weak, P/F raise? You may as well limp with them if you're going for deception, as a 3X the BB raise will allow all types of hands in with you.

As it was, you want to bet more on that draw heavy flop, especially with two others in the hand with you.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

I was kind of in tournament mode when I made the PF raise.

As soon as I clicked it, I knew it was weak.

Regarding the flop, I had read in Harrington that a 3/4 bet would generally accomplish the same thing as a pot bet with a 25% discount.

As I noted elsewhere in the thread, I think I misunderstood it and am going to reread it now.

Thanks for helping. I appreciate it.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

By only raising 3x BB you are inviting other hands in. You want to jack it up to at least 5x BB on this table, as they seem pretty loose. If they'll call a 3x BB raise with K5o, then you can juice them more when you pick up a big hand because they'll probably call a 5x BB raise with a similar trash hand.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's anyway I fold this river getting 3.4-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was more worried about the earlier streets, I guess.

In retrospect, I think I should have made it 5 or so PF and maybe pushed on the turn.

Is the way I actually played it better than this line?

Does anyone else release this on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have made it at least 4 to go pre-flop. Most people at this level will play crap hands when someone raises 3x BB pre-flop from MP, ESPECIALLY at 6 max. From EP, maybe you get away with it, but still unlikely in online play 6 max.

On the flop you HAVE to at least pot size this with the flush draw out there. People at 6-max will call with all sorts of crazy hands. And with a 3x BB raise pre-flop, you're not going to get a lot of respect. People will call you down with bottom pair. Besides, if someone has Kx, you're going to get lots of action. If not, then it's not meant to be and be happy that you took down the small pot. Don't get greedy with your aces. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The rest is.. well... not good.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should have made it at least 4 to go pre-flop. Most people at this level will play crap hands when someone raises 3x BB pre-flop from MP, ESPECIALLY at 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good reason to raise 3x.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should have made it at least 4 to go pre-flop. Most people at this level will play crap hands when someone raises 3x BB pre-flop from MP, ESPECIALLY at 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good reason to raise 3x.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine thinking, but potting the flop is mandatory if you want to go this direction.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should have made it at least 4 to go pre-flop. Most people at this level will play crap hands when someone raises 3x BB pre-flop from MP, ESPECIALLY at 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good reason to raise 3x.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but you don't want to play this against 4 people. If you really want to trap, then just limp this hand. Your not building that much of a pot by raising 3x and then allowing people to run into monster flops with their crap hands. Then you feel a little more married to the flop with it comes 993 and you bet and someone raises.

I think it's a much higher EV play to just play these hands standard against most party players. Raise big, get a caller or two and play the hand strong. To vary your play and make moves that are +EV you have to have observant and good opponents, which you're not going to find many of them on party tables. It's the old poker adage of - don't vary your play and change your game if the players you're playing against are strong enough to understand the basic concepts of poker, you're just throwing away money by doing this. Ocasionally you'll dupe someone for a huge pot, but more often than not you'll end up with a story like our friend in this post. Save your deceptive and game changing speeds for good opponents.

That's my 2 cents.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

He didn't play the hand against four people... he played it against two. When you're playing five-handed you only need to knock out a couple players. I'd rather have people calling my raises with K5o than to just steal the blinds whenever I don't run into a better hand.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't play the hand against four people... he played it against two. When you're playing five-handed you only need to knock out a couple players. I'd rather have people calling my raises with K5o than to just steal the blinds whenever I don't run into a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm speaking hypothetically when I say 4 people. Raising 3x the blind will commonly get you 3-4 callers at 6 max. He didn't this time, he got two. That's good news for hero. I'm not being results oriented here, I'm just stating the typical scenario. All of our advice is contingent upon how the table is playing though. Are people raising more with monster hands, are they limping, are they over playing suited connectors, etc...

4x the BB is not going to steal the blinds and antes. You're more than likely going to get one caller, possibly two. Again, this is just typical and it's splitting hairs, but it does make a difference.

My advice is based on hero's question. Why are my aces being cracked? Bad luck? Peraps. Yet, perhaps he is slowplaying/trapping with them too much. So my advice is play them a tad bit stronger.

Re: HELP - I keep getting killed with AA
 

once you're min checkraised on the turn you must go all in or fold.