Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

A friend and I have had this argument about how to play a certain hand, and I wanted to get some responses from you guys:

Here's the situation, 5 players left in tourney. Blinds started at 25/50, now they're at 400/800.

I'm in SB, everyone folds to me: I look down and see:
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I have about 3600 in chips left, BB has 2400.

What's the proper play here and why?

Thanks, I'll discuss what I did after a few answers.

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

Hard to answer without knowing how the other stacks looks and a read on the player.

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

Easy push.

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

BB800 = push or fold = push.

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

I don't see what the argument could be. Do you both have differeing views on how much time you take before pushing? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I can't think of table configuration where this push wouldn't be correct considering your M = 3 ( [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ).

Luminous

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

I don't think you really don't want to see the flop here. Without any reads I say push it. If you get called and lose, you're probably still in the money, with you on button next.

At this point (I know I'll get shouted down for this) you can fold away your 400 and let the three that aren't in the blinds this hand get busted out. It won't be popular on this forum, but in this specific situation, if it wins you money, what do you care?

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you really don't want to see the flop here. Without any reads I say push it. If you get called and lose, you're probably still in the money, with you on button next.

At this point (I know I'll get shouted down for this) you can fold away your 400 and let the three that aren't in the blinds this hand get busted out. It won't be popular on this forum, but in this specific situation, if it wins you money, what do you care?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me add a bit more info. BB is the small stack, and he's ultra tight. I'm about tied or maybe a touch above one other guy. Other two players have way more chips. It's a home game that started with 12 players. Top 3 get paid.

For those that say push, can U give 1 sentence for a reason why. Thanks

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

If you two guys are the two small stacks it is an obvious push. The reason is that you are likely to have the best hand here.

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

Unless BB is some kind of insane any 2 caller, POOOSH!!!

You have A2s, 4x BB, and it's folded to you in the SB. Even thinking about not pushing is wrong. You have insanely high FE, you need chips, AND you have a good hand.

Re: Argument needs settled about a hand...
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those that say push, can U give 1 sentence for a reason why. Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, the blinds necessitate this. You likely have the best hand here and he is almost pot committed from his blind. Most of the time he's either folding or calling with a worse hand, neither of which you mind. If he calls with a better hand, there's nothing you can do.

Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

I agree pushing is the right thing, and I'll do it all the time in this situation.

He's trying to argue that, whatever hand the BB has, he has Pot odds to call, (he'll be at most behind 3:2, and with his stack, that gives him odds to call). He then goes on to say, if he has odds to call (whether he's behind or not), he's making money making that call.

He goes on to say fold is the right play. I argue till I'm blue in the face he's nuts, but he doesn't listen. I think he's just trying to save face by arguing this since he made this proclamation with other players at the table.

I was trying to get other smart poker players opinion so I could show him what other people thought.

Any validity to his argument? I give it none.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

First, he doesn't have pot odds to call any 2. Second, getting called is bad, but you've got a discount from the SB. Third, Villain's probably not calling any 2. Fourth, folding this is moronic.

But, more importantly, you need to start posting hands that aren't about proving you're right, but can improve your play because you don't know what to do. That's where you can really earn a lot of money of 2+2.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

Both the push and the call can be correct, you know.

If we were playing poker with the cards flipped over so everyone could calculate the pot odds it would be another thing.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

It doesn't sound like this argument is helpful for either one of you.

Perhaps someday one of you will see the light...

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Luminous

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

I like a limp-reraise here.
<font color="white"> (Sarcasm) </font>

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's trying to argue that, whatever hand the BB has, he has Pot odds to call, (he'll be at most behind 3:2, and with his stack, that gives him odds to call). He then goes on to say, if he has odds to call (whether he's behind or not), he's making money making that call.

[/ QUOTE ]

So in limit if I know someone is on a flush draw and I bet into them and they are getting better than 4:1 on the call I shouldn't bet because they are making money on the call.

Well, I was yelling at the guy at the table...
 

that there's no way my play wasn't the right play. He's really really hard headed, and will never admit he's wrong. He's still a close friend of mine, and I really don't think he'd lay it down; like I said, I think he's trying to save face and just won't admit defeat.

I just wanted something to show him and say "see?"

Lastchance, I will post a problem I had, instead of a "prove I'm right" scenario.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

You friend needs to understand this:
[ QUOTE ]
Both the push and the call can be correct

[/ QUOTE ]
The blinds give sufficient overlay.

Is it correct to bet the turn when you have top pair and your opponent has a flush draw? Of course, you are getting your bet paid back 80% of the time. Is correct for your opponent to call? Of course, if he is getting 4:1 on his call.

The pot gives sufficient overlay.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

To reply to his arguement, more than one player can be 'making money' in a hand, because there are already 1200 chips in the pot. As a matter of fact, once the blinds are in, everyone at the table has a +EV for that hand.

edit: If you want to use some numbers to make the logic clear to him, give him a scenario where 2 players start with 1000 chips each, and the blinds are 900/950. It is very obviously correct for both players to get all-in no matter what cards they hold.

Re: Here\'s what he\'s trying to argue...
 

Here's my argument .... the player is absolutely rock solid. The only way you get a call is if he has suited connectors, suited hoppers or Beernutts in a horrible situation. So, essentially, you're risking your whole tournament for one big blind while at the same time giving the other guy odds to make just about any call.

If the guy believes Beernutts has AQo, he is STILL correct in calling (technically) with 10 8s. Why would you want to put yourself in this kind of position with A2s? If beernutts gets called, he has no more than a 57:43 fav AT VERY BEST cause the guy is not calling with anything other than suited connectors/hoppers or better. Why would you put your tournament on the line for something like this?

Sure enough, as usual, the guy turned over JJ and beernutts spiked his ace. I would personally just rather wait for a more solid hand against a more loose player or at least one where I would be getting odds just as the other guy was in this situation. This was game where the other 3 players were terrible and beernutts has a solid rep. He coulda been more patient imo. If the A2s was "such an easy push", what would y'all do with K2s????

For the sake of argument...
 

In the same situation, how would you play K2s?
I think that's a tough call.

Re: For the sake of argument...
 

Push it. You said BB was tight. This is a really clear push given the desperation that 4x BB brings, especially from the SB.

Hell, even if you flip over your cards, it's still a +Chip EV push, and it might even be a +$EV one.