Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

FWIW IMO Durbin remarks were political pandering but to be fair he cited an FBI report that I'm sure is one of many reports by the U.S. on Gitmo. I'm fairly certain that Durbin was practicing political demagoguery by citing one report that he could use to misleed in order to gain political points but I could be convinced otherwise. Anybody want to try and support the notion that the detainees treatment is how the Nazis, the Soviets, and/or Pol Pot treated their enemies in their detention facilities?

Gitmo Death Camp

About 9 million persons, including 6 million Jews, died in Hitler's death camps, 2.7 million persons died in Stalin's gulags and 1.7 million Cambodians died in Pol Pot's scourge of his country.
No prisoners have died at Guantanamo, and the Pentagon has acknowledged five instances of abuse or irreverent handling of the Koran, the holy book of Muslims.
After reading the e-mail, Mr. Durbin said, "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."




We Are Our History -- Don't Forget It

Ignorance of history destroys our judgment. Consider Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill), who just compared the Guantanamo Bay detention center to Stalin's gulag and to the death camps of Hitler and Pol Pot — an astonishing, obscene piece of ignorance. Between 15 million and 30 million people died from 1918 through 1956 in the prisons and labor camps of the Soviet gulag. Historian Robert Conquest gives some facts. A prisoner at the Kholodnaya Gora prison had to stuff his ears with bread before sleeping on account of the shrieks of women being interrogated. At the Kolyma in Siberia, inmates labored through 12-hour days in cheap canvas shoes, on almost no food, in temperatures that could go to minus-58. At one camp, 1,300 of 3,000 inmates died in one year.

"Gulag" must not go the way of "Nazi" and become virtually meaningless. Europeans love calling Israelis "Nazis" — a transparent attempt to slough off their guilt like rattlesnakes shedding skin. ("See, the Jews are as bad as we were!") I'd like to ban the word "Nazi" except when applied to … Nazis. Lawbreakers would be ordered to learn what Nazi actually means.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Did you watch the Daily Show last night? They did a piece on how everyone is comparing everyone else to Nazis. Both sides do it constantly. Rick Santorum and Pat Buchanan off the top of my head were shown from the right.

Both sides are way over the top.

That being said, people seem to think that showing that things happened on different scales means you can't make analogies. That's simply wrong.

If someone committed acts that were 'Nazi-like' or 'Hitleresque', one can say so and be correct even if they weren't on the same scale.

My last thought... I've said this weeks ago and, to no surprise, things haven't changed. The fact that someone compared Gitmo to a Gulag is irrelevent. When you hear that people are being denied rights, people are being tortured, an innocent man presumeably was tortured to death, etc. AND someone compared it to a "Gulag"... I have to wonder what's wrong with people when they they're confronted with all of that information; they think the appalling part that deserves the most attention was that they think someone made an inappropriate analogy.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Just a general remark for the moment:

It's really incredible to me how common this sort erroneous thinking and speech seems to have become. In making comparisons, people with agendas seem all-too-ready to bandy about comparisons or metaphors that are extremely inappropriate and conceptually flawed in the extreme. If any of these people tried to answer the analogy section of a SAT or any other important exam, with the same lack of care they use when discussing politically-related issues, they would get an abysmally low score (or fail on pass/fail type exams).

Of course some people have always said ridiculous things along such lines, but it seems to me that it has reached a crescendo of sorts recently, after building over the last few years.

It's not innocuous because discussions hinge to a significant degree on the accuracy of the terms used. If you are discussing how to remove actual molehills from your backyard, and you refer to them as mountains, well, a logical follow-up question might be be: where are we going to get the earth-moving machinery and how much will it cost to transport it? Misuse of terms can have a way of seriously derailing the discussion from its proper focus. Improperly using emotionally charged terms can also help polarize people and shift the emphasis from analysis to emotion.

It is especially disappointing to see elected officials either: A) being this stupid or ignorant, or B) being this propagandistic. This ties in with Zeno's recent post on the propagandistic language used by the ACLU in the recent fund-raising direct mail solicitation.

Everyone should stop and and think about just how destructive to rationality, AND THEREFORE TO RATIONAL SOLUTIONS, such deceptive hyperbole can be.

I know I'm preaching to the choir with you Adios, and Zeno, and a good number of others. But a lot of people in this country (including some posters on this forum) need to understand that hyperbole (especially truly bad comparisons) is genuinely destructive to rational discussions and to deriving good solutions.

What is the point of having logic as a tool, and an enormous number of widely descriptive terms in the English language, if we ignore logic, and deliberately choose to use ill-fitted terms when discussing important matters? Discussing things in such a manner is an insult to rationality and to the history of human progress.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
That being said, people seem to think that showing that things happened on different scales means you can't make analogies. That's simply wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on the particular analogy and context in which it is used, differences of scale or degree can mean a great deal or mean little.

The key is knowing which is which (that is, what is the main point intended to be illustrated by the analogy, and do the primary qualities of the object of its comparison fit well or conflict with this point. Note that if one primary quality fits well yet another primary quality fits terribly, it might be a poor or misleading analogy).

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on the particular analogy and context in which it is used, differences of scale or degree can mean a great deal or mean little.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But I think often people ignore the root reason why someone makes an analogy and focuses on what they perceive are the other associated connotations.

With this particular issue... I think the people are jumping on what they see as inflammatory rhetoric to divert attention away from/avoid confronting the reasons WHY the person made the criticism.

Like I said.. the appalling thing isn't that someone compared Gitmo to a Gulag. The appalling thing is some of the things that have been happening that led someone to compare it to a Gulag.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

I think you're right. The hyperbole is ridiculous.

That being said, I think the use of the term 'Gulag' was a valid analogy.

"likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp. "

If people were tortured in Gulags... and people are being tortured at Gitmo, then it is an appropriate analogy. It doesn't matter if Gulags had a longer range or held held and killed millions of people. The analogy is saying that this particular place has the same atmosphere.

I'd argue most of the Nazi/Hitler references (from both sides) are over the top.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said.. the appalling thing isn't that someone compared Gitmo to a Gulag. The appalling thing is some of the things that have been happening that led someone to compare it to a Gulag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Drawing an equivalence between Gitmo, in which nobody has died, and a prison system in which millions were killed, implicitly trivializes the deaths and sufferings of those persons--and thereby makes a lousy analogy (and to some, undoubtedly an offensive analogy).

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Analogies aren't as simple as you think.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

" turning the air conditioner down so low the naked prisoner was shivering"
" turned the air conditioner off so it was close to 100 degrees "
" plyed loud rap music "
" used sleep deprivation "
these things were actually done at gitmo
Durbin is dispicable.
I find it hard to take that a member of out senate would smear men and women in uniform as nazis or torturers of any sort.
These are tried and true methods of gathering information WITHOUT torturing them
An example of torture would be...
cutting off a finger...
maybe burning with a hot iron...
shooting another terrorist in front of you..
things that actually cause permanent harm and damage.
Can you honestly say that turning up the AC is torture ?
Of course not.
Durbin should resign in shame.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Drawing an equivalence between Gitmo, in which nobody has died

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't it at Gitmo where we tortured the innocent man to death? (or am I confusing which US torture site has had several deaths at our hands?)

And this demonstrates the problems with language. A Gulag has a broad range of meanings and implications.

Right out of Dictionary.com:
"A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp."

You are stating specific traits about the Russian Gulag that isn't the same and deciding that no analogies can be drawn. That simply isn't right. There are specific reasons to draw a parallel.

And I still say you're missing my point... even if we all agreed that Gulag was inappropriate... that pales in comparison to the fact that the US is torturing people.

As I said... I don't get and think something's wrong with people who think their outrage should be focused on the use of the word Gulag. Its ridiculously shallow. (Though I suspect its how one must be to be a Bush apologist.)

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Apparently you guys don't read.

Even a number of well-read conservatives on the board have said that you're just ridiculous if you don't think people are being tortured. (And for the record, we have tortured people to death.)

People are being smeared. Try reading. Keep up.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

I don't agree, kurto; and do I find it appalling that an elected official can so blatantly misuse a term like "gulag".

Misuse of words like "torture" is appalling, too.

As for what's going on at Gitmo, it's probably the BEST that any non-official combatants captured by the enemy have ever been treated anywhere, in the history of the world.

That said, I do have some questions and reservations about it.

One question I have is why the al-Qaedans toting AK-47's weren't just shot on the battlefield. I suppose there must be good intelligence reasons for keeping them alive, though.

More thoughts later; I'm going out for a walk.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

My last thought... I've said this weeks ago and, to no surprise, things haven't changed. The fact that someone compared Gitmo to a Gulag is irrelevent. When you hear that people are being denied rights, people are being tortured, an innocent man presumeably was tortured to death, etc. AND someone compared it to a "Gulag"... I have to wonder what's wrong with people when they they're confronted with all of that information; they think the appalling part that deserves the most attention was that they think someone made an inappropriate analogy.

[/ QUOTE ]

HERE IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR "LAST" THOUGHT...
That people are being denied rights is a given... its a prison camp. In every prison evry where rights are denied. The reason being that you forfeit rights when you commit the acts that land you in prison. As in every war before this one the prisoners will be released when the war is over.
What you want to call torture is a joke. In boot camp I was put through far worse. Every act that was taken was to gather information to keep americns alive. If someone has to lose sleep or listen to rap music to keep americans alive then so be it.I will support it up to the point REAL torture occurs.
The Geneva convention does not apply to these prisoners. It has never applied to our people being held by them I might add.
Who was tortured to death at gitmo?????
Who????
No one.
Who can it be confirmed was tortured to death at all ????
Who ???
No one.
People like you repeat lies over and over again hoping that maybe just maybe the rest of us have become as Shiavo like as you.
The looney left ceases to be amusing when their actions put americans in actual danger.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree, kurto; and do I find it appalling that an elected official can so blatantly misuse a term like "gulag".


[/ QUOTE ]

The Dictionary definition shows that it is appropriate. You're playing semantics.

"Misuse of words like "torture" is appalling, too."

lol Oh God, you're getting loopy. Now you don't think people are being tortured? You are aware that we've TORTURED someone to death?

[ QUOTE ]
As for what's going on at Gitmo, it's probably the BEST that any non-official combatants captured by the enemy have ever been treated anywhere, in the history of the world.


[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, you are only guessing. Second, its not relevent to the issue; we're breaking laws or going around them. Third; that's no justification for the human rights violations going on. We would condemn any country that was found doing the same.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Let's be clear and accurate about Sen. Durbin's remarks. He never referred to Gitmo as a 'death camp', that was the headline used by the hacks at the Moonie run Washington Times. The torture he was referring to was from an FBI report that included eye witness accounts of a prisoner subject to extreme temperatures (both freezing and heating), being chained in painful poses for extended periods of time (18-24 hours) including being forced by the time elapsed to defecate on themselves. His statements weren't about Koran abuse.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
That people are being denied rights is a given... its a prison camp. In every prison evry where rights are denied.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prisoners have rights. Do some research.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason being that you forfeit rights when you commit the acts that land you in prison.

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't even know that all the people there have done acts to get them in prison. We already know that we tortured an innocent cab driver to death.

[ QUOTE ]
As in every war before this one the prisoners will be released when the war is over.


[/ QUOTE ]

Once again.. keep up. Rumsfeld said we might never let them go. And what war are you talking about? Are you say when 'terror' is defeated, they'll be released?

"What you want to call torture is a joke."

As I said, its clear you don't do much reading. LOL You know the joke where we hang people by chains for several days and beat them until they die. Yeah,... that's a joke. Seriously, it would appear you've read next to nothing on the subject.

[ QUOTE ]
In boot camp I was put through far worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its odd that you would say this since you clearly have no idea what's been reported happening there.

[ QUOTE ]
Every act that was taken was to gather information to keep americns alive. If someone has to lose sleep or listen to rap music to keep americans alive then so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, this sounds too ignorant to even address.

[ QUOTE ]
People like you repeat lies over and over again hoping that maybe just maybe the rest of us have become as Shiavo like as you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I was trying to focus to the half way thinking literate posters on the forum. Try reading once in awhile. You come across pretty ignorant. (For the record, I said it was unclear which prison site we tortured the innocent guy to death. And more then one person has been killed. I single this one out since we are fairly certain he was innocent.... the fact that you call it lies just shows you're ignorant and a waste of time.

Try reading. It might do you wonders.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

From my original post:

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW IMO Durbin remarks were political pandering but to be fair he cited an FBI report that I'm sure is one of many reports by the U.S. on Gitmo.

[/ QUOTE ]

You responded in part:

[ QUOTE ]
Let's be clear and accurate about Sen. Durbin's remarks. He never referred to Gitmo as a 'death camp', that was the headline used by the hacks at the Moonie run Washington Times. The torture he was referring to was from an FBI report that included eye witness accounts of a prisoner subject to extreme temperatures (both freezing and heating), being chained in painful poses for extended periods of time (18-24 hours) including being forced by the time elapsed to defecate on themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully acknowledged that Durbin quoted an FBI report. The question is did he choose the report that would best suit his political purposes? Where is this report and how does this report stack up to other reports on Gitmo by the U.S. government? Seriously I have a hard time believing that the U.S. government has only one FBI report on Gitmo. I'd be willing to bet alot of money that Durbin chose this report shall we say selectively. Why hasn't Durbin produced this report (he may have and links would be appreciated)? Is it classified? If so IMO he shouldn't mention a specific report without giving people the opportunity to examine it in context and in light of other reports. He could easily state that he has information about the treatment of detainees that's very disturbing etc. I have a hard time believing that the info in the report is classified as well.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

How does one miss the numerous stories all referencing this same report?

Its not like Durbin is the only one who has this report.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Fair enough provide the link to it then or if you have a copy post it. It would be much appreciated.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

"did he choose the report that would best suit his political purposes?"

He's a politician. How would it be even conceivable that the answer would be anything but yes?

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

"Everyone should stop and and think about just how destructive to rationality, AND THEREFORE TO RATIONAL SOLUTIONS, such deceptive hyperbole can be."

But a politician's stock in trade is neither rationality nor rational decisions. It's getting reelected, looking good, and interpreting events to fit his ideology and preconceived notions. As I've brought up here time and time again, especially when it comes to war and going to war, lies and damned lies are the rule of the day. The president claims if we don't invade a country we'll see a mushroom cloud here; his opponent says he voted for the money for the troops before he voted against it; and a senator compares cold temperatures to Dachau.

SOP. And SOB.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Points taken but that's still no excuse. Why can't pandering politicians strive to emulate Abe Lincoln rather than (insert best suited name here; I can't think of a good example at the moment)?

Also, isn't the phrase "stock and trade" rather than "stock in trade"? That's just the way I always presumed it to be;-) As I recall, Cris Brown used this phrase when posting about how she would play Scrabble with Paul Phillips for money ("words are my stock in trade")? It struck me as strange then and still does.

Hey maybe it's both [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I'm off to Google for exactly 2 minutes.

edited after Google: Hmmm looks like "stock in trade" is it, and better fitted. Guess that makes more sense anyway.

Another day, another useless bit of trivia learned.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

the funny part about this is that people arbitrarily decide there are multiple reports, that they then choose the report they like best.

I believe he's referring to the 2000 page recently declassified report that was released. Its not like picking your favorite newspaper. Its an official military report.

Most people with half a brain aren't contesting what's been going on in the prisons... they're objecting to Durbin's choice of words.

The people pretending that he's cherry-picking what reports he refers to are laughable.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
the funny part about this is that people arbitrarily decide there are multiple reports, that they then choose the report they like best.

I believe he's referring to the 2000 page recently declassified report that was released. Its not like picking your favorite newspaper. Its an official military report.

[/ QUOTE ]

What report are you referring to? Durbin cited a report by an FBI agent and not a military report. Nice try at revisionismm.

[ QUOTE ]
Most people with half a brain aren't contesting what's been going on in the prisons... they're objecting to Durbin's choice of words.

[/ QUOTE ]

As many have pointed out comaring Guantanamo detainee treatment to the treatment that Nazi's would dole out is offensive to many in that it trivializes what the crimes of the Nazi's. Since your another arbiter of the truth what is the truth and how do you back up this claim about most people? The American people are entitled to know the truth and if Durbin can further that end then he should do so. If he can't produce the report then one has to question his motives.

[ QUOTE ]
The people pretending that he's cherry-picking what reports he refers to are laughable.

[/ QUOTE ]

All you have to do is produce the report that Durbin is referring to. I would really like to see it and make my own evaluation rather than Durbin make it for me thank you very much.. Any links or posted copies would be greatly appreciated. I thought it would be a simple matter to produce this report but I couldn't find it. I searched the Congressional record and counldn't find it among other places. I'm starting to think either this report doesn't exist or that Durbin is misconstruing the contents. You believe it's laughable that a politician would practive demagoguery by selectively using reports that supported his political aims (or even worse fabricating information)? Now that is what I call laughable.


A follow up article regarding Durbin's comments:

Senator Regrets if Remarks Misunderstood

From the article:

Durbin made the comparison after reading an
FBI agent's report describing detainees at the Naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as being chained to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures.

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings," Durbin said Tuesday.

Waiting for a yet another revision to history where the FBI agents report is part of some nebulous military report.


On Friday, Durbin tried to clarify the issue. "My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this Administration, which add to the risk our soldiers face," he said in a statement released Friday afternoon. "I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: Our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support."

Durbin acknowledging that he more or less went over the top and offended many by his comments because there actually is no comparision between Gitmo detainees treatment and treatment of that the Nazis and Soviets dished out to their enemies.

The Anti-Defamation League on Thursday had joined lawmakers and other groups in calling for an apology.

Suggesting some kind of equivalence between (U.S. military) interrogation tactics demonstrates a profound lack of understanding about the horrors that Hitler and his regime actually perpetrated," the league said in a letter to Durbin that was posted to its Web site.

I guess another group with half a brain.



Durbin had said Thursday that he had never brought U.S. soldiers into the comparison in the first place, and that he was criticizing the approved interrogation methods described in an FBI memo obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request.

First reference I've seen to some details about the report. Why hasn't Durbin been forthcoming as to what report it is? Want to bet any money that there are government reports available that would contradict what Durbin is saying?

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

A link to some interesting debate from the Congressional Record:

Durbin Being Questioned by Senators About his Remarks



These statememts by Senator Warner of Virginia (one of the moderate Republicans who forged the comprimise on filibusters btw) basically sums up the point I've made:

Mr. WARNER. You are reading from a report of one of our investigative agencies. There is no verification of the accuracy of that report. You take it at face value. I pointed out--and I discussed it with Secretary Rumsfeld--this allegation of the FBI agent, together with a lot of other facts, is now being carefully scrutinized under our established judicial process.
I trained as a lawyer and many years as a prosecutor and dealt with the Bureau. I have the highest respect for them. But I do not accept at face value everything they put down on paper until I make certain it can be corroborated and substantiated.
For you to have come to the floor with just that fragment of a report and then unleash the words ``the Nazis,'' unleash the word ``gulag,'' unleash ``Pol Pot''--I don't know how many remember that chapter--it seems to me that was the greatest error in judgment, and it leaves open to the press of the world to take those three extraordinary chapters in world history and try and intertwine it with what has taken place allegedly at Guantanamo.
I am perfectly willing to be a part of as much of an investigation as the Senate should perform and will in my committee. But I am not going to come to the floor with just one report in hand and begin to impugn the actions of those in charge, namely, the uniformed personnel, at this time. We should allow matters of this type to be very carefully examined before we jump to a conclusion.

and

Mr. WARNER. I would say, Madam President, I served as assistant U.S. attorney for 5 years and dealt with the FBI all the time. I have very high regard for that service. But the Senator knows full well that is just an investigative report by one agent. It is under investigation by the Bureau and by the Department of Defense at this time in the context
of many other pieces of evidence. One cannot come to this great forum, which is viewed the world over as one which is known for trying to assert the rights of this country as taking its place in the world, as following due process and
principles of our Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights and comment to the Senate about some young uniformed person who probably is the subject of that FBI report--until such time as that person in uniform is adjudicated in a proper forum as to having done that is alleged in that report, or not done, it seems to me we
shouldn't be discussing it in the Senate.

Hey Ernst Rohm...don\'t you realize
 

that your fuhrer wants to put you and MMMMM's kind in gitmo too? He believesw that men that have sex with men are sub-human, damned to hell, and deserve the treatment that they get.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

You know, I didn't know whether it was stock in trade or stock and trade, I had to look it up too.

I wouldn't worry too much about this particular senator. Frankly, I hadn't even heard of him before this speech. Ahd I wouldn't be surprised if "Honest Abe" was a P/R creation too.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

You say:
[ QUOTE ]
What report are you referring to? Durbin cited a report by an FBI agent and not a military report. Nice try at revisionismm.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yet I said:
[ QUOTE ]
I believe he's referring to the 2000 page recently declassified report that was released.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your accusation of revisionism falls flat. Perhaps you were unclear how "I believe" modifies the statement?

Second, the fact that both the 2000 page military report AND the report that by an FBI agent both corroborrate that torture has taken place only strengthens the case that torture is taking place.

[ QUOTE ]
As many have pointed out comaring Guantanamo detainee treatment to the treatment that Nazi's would dole out is offensive to many in that it trivializes what the crimes of the Nazi's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have already said in another thread that I thought a lot of people on both sides are quick to compare people to Nazis. Both sides do it. (just so people can't pretend its one sided, both Pat Buchanan and Rick Santorum both did it recently) I have also repeatedly said that people who get outraged over inappropriate analogies OVER the fact that people are being tortured have their priorities screwed up.

[ QUOTE ]
Since your another arbiter of the truth what is the truth and how do you back up this claim about most people?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look on this forum. Many conservatives admit that torture is happening (many of them excuse it, but they don't deny it.) Both the Military reports and FBI have confirmed this. The people who are doubting it are just arbitrarily deciding all the investigations are wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
The American people are entitled to know the truth and if Durbin can further that end then he should do so. If he can't produce the report then one has to question his motives.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is it your contention that he's making up reports because its not in your hands? If so, you're ridiculous. Who besides partisan whacks on this board is doubting the existence of the report? Sheesh.

[ QUOTE ]
All you have to do is produce the report that Durbin is referring to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately you may not get access to FBI reports. Has the FBI denied the existence of the report? If you want to pretend that he's made a report, that's fine. If its not in your hands, its probably not real. Usually you get all FBI reports... can't imagine why you weren't cc'd on this one.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to think either this report doesn't exist or that Durbin is misconstruing the contents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... that makes sense. If the report isn't shown to you, it probably doesn't exist. Again... I haven't heard the FBI deny the existence of the report or anyone else. But if the FBI doesn't give you access to all their reports.. then they probably don't exist. You made a GREAT argument.

Maybe you should write the FBI and make sure you get clearance for all internal memos. Since nothing is real unless you have it.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
this allegation of the FBI agent, together with a lot of other facts, is now being carefully scrutinized under our established judicial process.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, they're scrutinizing the report. So they acknowledge the report. Don't you look foolish.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently you guys don't read.

Even a number of well-read conservatives on the board have said that you're just ridiculous if you don't think people are being tortured. (And for the record, we have tortured people to death.)

People are being smeared. Try reading. Keep up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhh.... nope.
People aren'tbeing tortured they are being questioned.
Torture consists of cutting off limbs, burning parts of your body etc..
The problem lies with what you want to call torture.
The methods we use are HUMANE. Sleep deprivation is humane.In the end no one is hurt.It is a proven way to gather information.
As far as prisoners being tortured to death...
there are 2 and only 2 that are in question.
2 men died while being questioned in afghanastan. Over 2 years ago. In both cases the soldiers were tried and convicted by a milatary court. You need to read and get your facts straight.
NO ONE has died at gitmo.
The very memo that Durbin read was about questioning the 20th hi jacker who is, by the way, still very much alive.
Information gathered from him and others has prevented attacks.
I and I believe others like me don't disagree that what Durbin said takes place. We just believe that turning up or down the airconditioner consists of torture.
It certainly doesn't consist of the heinous crimes committed by the nazis of soviets etc.
Equating the nazis to our soldiers puts them in more danger than they are already in.
The fact that Durbin read anything with the word "airconditioner" followed by "torture" is laughable.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Second, the fact that both the 2000 page military report AND the report that by an FBI agent both corroborrate that torture has taken place...

Do either of these reports use the word torture or is that your word?

I have also repeatedly said that people who get outraged over inappropriate analogies OVER the fact that people are being tortured have their priorities screwed up.

Again you use the word torture, is it your word or is it in the reports you keep stating?



Look on this forum. Many conservatives admit that torture is happening (many of them excuse it, but they don't deny it.) Both the Military reports and FBI have confirmed this.

Was torture your word or the word of the conservatives?

Have you read either of the reports kurto just out of curiosity?

Part of milatary training is stress tests. Sleep deprivation
was a major part of it. Extreme temps was another.I've seen troops stand at attention for hours. Then pass out.
Now if i took out the word "milatary" and put in the word "torture"....
That is the disagrreement kurto.
What you believe is torture and I believe is questioning.
On a side note... what methods can we use to gather information from the terrorists?
thats what these people are kurto. terrrorists.
Is it possible that a non terrorist has been locked up... yes.
I'm sure there have. We have also released some 150 people from Gitmo so we believe that not evryone is a terrorist.
When we are SURE we let them go.
We've made mistakes there too. Some we released have headed back to the battle field.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

You're wasting your time Billy, he doesn't have a clue as to what the FBI memo is or of any specific information in any military report. As far as torture is concerned, first we have to define the criteria and then see if it applies. He's not interested in any information that would contradict his world view.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I and I believe others like me don't disagree that what Durbin said takes place. We just believe that turning up or down the airconditioner consists of torture.


[/ QUOTE ]

Read the Time Magazine article. You'll see how during these simple humane techniques, they had to send a prisoner to a doctor.

You can characterize it as turning up the AC... but you're just being purposely dense.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that Durbin read anything with the word "airconditioner" followed by "torture" is laughable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly... you have no imagination.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
he doesn't have a clue

[/ QUOTE ]

Look up Irony. Has the FBI cc'd you on their reports yet? We all know now that nothing's true unless adios gets a copy of the reports.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

It is great to see Durbin stand up and point out that the way we are treating prisoners is dispicable.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Here's another column abouut Gitmo, etc.--and with what I think is a "fair and balanced" take on the whole situation.

Washington Post

"Gitmo Grovel: Enough Already

The self-flagellation over reports of abuse at Guantanamo Bay has turned into a full-scale panic. There are calls for the United States, with all this worldwide publicity, to simply shut the place down.

A terrible idea. One does not run and hide simply because allegations have been made. If the charges are unverified, as they overwhelmingly are in this case, then they need to be challenged. The United States ought to say what it has and has not done, and not simply surrender to rumor.

Moreover, shutting down Guantanamo will solve nothing. We will capture more terrorists, and we will have to interrogate them, if not at Guantanamo then somewhere else. There will then be reports from that somewhere else that will precisely mirror the charges coming out of Guantanamo. What will we do then? Keep shutting down one detention center after another?

The self-flagellation has gone far enough. We know that al Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture when they are in detention, and specifically to charge abuse of the Koran to inflame fellow prisoners on the inside and potential sympathizers on the outside.

In March the Navy inspector general reported that, out of about 24,000 interrogations at Guantanamo, there were seven confirmed cases of abuse, "all of which were relatively minor." In the eyes of history, compared to any other camp in any other war, this is an astonishingly small number. Two of the documented offenses involved "female interrogators who, on their own initiative, touched and spoke to detainees in a sexually suggestive manner." Not exactly the gulag.

The most inflammatory allegations have been not about people but about mishandling the Koran. What do we know here? The Pentagon reports (Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, May 26) -- all these breathless "scoops" come from the U.S. government's own investigations of itself -- that of 13 allegations of Koran abuse, five were substantiated, of which two were most likely accidental.

Let's understand what mishandling means. Under the rules the Pentagon later instituted at Guantanamo, proper handling of the Koran means using two hands and wearing gloves when touching it. Which means that if any guard held the Koran with one hand or had neglected to put on gloves, this would be considered mishandling.

On the scale of human crimes, where, say, 10 is the killing of 2,973 innocent people in one day and 0 is jaywalking, this ranks as perhaps a 0.01.

Moreover, what were the Korans doing there in the first place? The very possibility of mishandling Korans arose because we gave them to each prisoner. What kind of crazy tolerance is this? Is there any other country that would give a prisoner precisely the religious text that that prisoner and those affiliated with him invoke to justify the slaughter of innocents? If the prisoners had to have reading material, I would have given them the book "Portraits 9/11/01" -- vignettes of the lives of those massacred on Sept. 11.

Why this abjectness on our part? On the very day the braying mob in Pakistan demonstrated over the false Koran report in Newsweek, a suicide bomber blew up an Islamic shrine in Islamabad, destroying not just innocent men, women and children, but undoubtedly many Korans as well. Not a word of condemnation. No demonstrations.

Even greater hypocrisy is to be found here at home. Civil libertarians, who have been dogged in making sure that FBI-collected Guantanamo allegations are released to the world, seem exquisitely sensitive to mistreatment of the Koran. A rather selective scrupulousness. When an American puts a crucifix in a jar of urine and places it in a museum, civil libertarians rise immediately to defend it as free speech. And when someone makes a painting of the Virgin Mary, smears it with elephant dung and adorns it with porn, not only is that free speech, it is art -- deserving of taxpayer funding and an ACLU brief supporting the Brooklyn Museum when the mayor freezes its taxpayer subsidy.

Does the Koran deserve special respect? Of course it does. As do the Bibles destroyed by the religious police in Saudi Arabia and the Torahs blown up in various synagogues from Tunisia to Turkey.

Should the United States apologize? If there were mishandlings of the Koran, we should say so and express regret. And that should be in the context of our remarkably humane and tolerant treatment of the Guantanamo prisoners, and in the context of a global war on terrorism (for example, the campaign in Afghanistan) conducted with a discrimination and a concern for civilian safety rarely seen in the annals of warfare.

Then we should get over it, stop whimpering and start defending ourselves."

By Charles Krauthammer

Friday, June 3, 2005; Page A23

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

Krauthammer makes a decent argument, and then he blows it at the end.

1: "Is there any other country that would give a prisoner precisely the religious text to... justify the slaughter of innocents?" Sure, isn't the Bible allowed in prisons around the world? This claim is pure rhetoric and a desperate pleading with the reader to bask in how good the United States is.

2: Civil libertarians are arguing points of law, not what their political beliefs are. I don't think they would have a problem with someone tearing up a Koran at a demonstration - that's protected by free speech. Krauthammer is setting up a nice strawman here by comparing two out-of-context events.

I really don't think a conservative's defense should be "Isn't this better than anything ever?" There has to be a better argument than that. And no, I don't think mishandling the Koran is a big deal.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

I agree that some of Krauthammer's arguments are a bit flawed or less than ideal. I do think his central theme is pretty much on target, though.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

how is this fair and balanced? Its incorrect.

Let me start by saying, I don't think Gitmo needs to be shutdown. But they might need to kick out some of the people who are running the thing and have some monitoring.

But this isn't very credible:
[ QUOTE ]
We know that al Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture when they are in detention, and specifically to charge abuse of the Koran to inflame fellow prisoners on the inside and potential sympathizers on the outside.


[/ QUOTE ]

The military have investigated it. Numerous military personel have confirmed that torture has taken place. (and at other sites, they have already confirmed that prisoner were beaten to death.)

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, what were the Korans doing there in the first place? The very possibility of mishandling Korans arose because we gave them to each prisoner. What kind of crazy tolerance is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it sure sounds crazy to allow people to have the book of their faith. That's just CRAZY. We allow regular prisoners to have books and we don't deny prisoners Bibles.

Also... people should stop comparing ourselves to other countries that may do worst. We like to pretend we're an example to the rest of the world. We shouldn't dismiss any potential wrongdoing that may be happening by saying other people do worse things.

Re: Durbin\'s Comments About Detainees Treatment At Gitmo
 

[ QUOTE ]
how is this fair and balanced? Its incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

how is it incoorect? Specifics please.

[ QUOTE ]
Let me start by saying, I don't think Gitmo needs to be shutdown. But they might need to kick out some of the people who are running the thing and have some monitoring.

But this isn't very credible:

"We know that al Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture when they are in detention, and specifically to charge abuse of the Koran to inflame fellow prisoners on the inside and potential sympathizers on the outside."

The military have investigated it. Numerous military personel have confirmed that torture has taken place. (and at other sites, they have already confirmed that prisoner were beaten to death.)

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you need to define torture, as Adios has suggested, so such things can be talked about more precisely Second, the fact that some torture, or something somehow resembling torture, may be occurring somewhere, in no way refutes the statement that al-Qaeda operatives are trained to charge torture and Koran abuse. So how pray tell is that statement "incorrect"? Fact is you don't know it is incorrect and you've offered nothing to refute it.


[ QUOTE ]
Krauthammer: "Moreover, what were the Korans doing there in the first place? The very possibility of mishandling Korans arose because we gave them to each prisoner. What kind of crazy tolerance is this?
----------------------------------------------------------
Kurto: Yes, it sure sounds crazy to allow people to have the book of their faith. That's just CRAZY. We allow regular prisoners to have books and we don't deny prisoners Bibles.

[/ QUOTE ]

The suicide hijackers followed the fanatical Islamic view that dying in jihad would lead them to Paradise (specifically in this case, by committing their horrific acts of mass murder against infidels and dying in the process, they would get into Paradise as martyrs). Their fanatical devotion to the religious text propelled them towards their evil deeds, BECAUSE IN THE KORAN IT SPECIFICALLY CALLS ON MUSLIMS TO SLAUGHTER INFIDELS, and because these fanatics took that message literally.

So no, I don't think they should have been provided Korans.

Why give them the book that will confirm in their minds that killing infidels is just, and God's will; and why give them a source of internal psychological strength. If we are seeking information from them to prevent future terrorist attacks, better to break them psychologically. They should have no Korans in my opinion. The only practical reason to give them Korans would be to pacify the outside Muslim world. But even better in my opinion would be to tell the outside Muslim world that the reason the detainees don't get Korans is because they used the Koran to justify attacking and killing non-Muslims.

[ QUOTE ]
Also... people should stop comparing ourselves to other countries that may do worst. We like to pretend we're an example to the rest of the world. We shouldn't dismiss any potential wrongdoing that may be happening by saying other people do worse things.

[/ QUOTE ]

We should not stop such making comparisons. Agreed, we shouldn't dismiss any potential wrongdoing but we should keep it in perspective. Keeping things in perspective is THE WHOLE POINT of such comparisons. More such comparisons ought to be made because far too persons many seem to have lost all sense of perspective.