KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

I'm struggling with 2/4 and am 20BB down after 5k hands (I know, not enough hands etc...) and would welcome comments on this hand.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Early in my session and no reads on opponents. I have seen some heavy betting preflop on the table, but not from CO (of course) or Button. After <10 hands Button is no maniac.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO (poster) 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Pretty straightforward raise with KJs in late position. I decide to call when it comes back to me capped. CO might suspect a steal, but Button must have a good hand.

Should I fold when it comes back to me?

Flop: (13.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Pretty good flop, but no diamonds. The open ended straight draw gives me eight outs to the nuts. Is it too aggressive to bet out here?

Turn: (9.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Hit TP, but I'm unsure about my kicker. Button might very well have AK given his actions so far.

River: (12.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

And a blank on the river. Correct to call down in a 14 BB pot, right? Even with two opponents?

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Fold this when it gets back to you preflop. KJs is just too weak to play here.

Postflop play is fine, even though it looks like button has AK. This is why you should've folded preflop [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

nothing wrong with the PF raise, but CO and Button probably aren't thinking that you're stealing here and probably aren't trying to resteal. One of them is ahead of you, both very well might be, and theres a good chance that you're dominated by one of them. Folding when it comes back to you for 2 more is the right play.

Leading the flop with the OESD to the nuts is solid. I'm curious what others say about the turn play. I think that you have to call the river here (though I'm a bit worried about CO maybe firing in a c/r which would suck). Your K only has to be good 1 time in 15 with the pot that big ... but it won't be good much more than that.

&lt;10 hands on a villain = NO READ AT ALL! unless he's folded all 10 hands (then you can read him to at least be selective PF and you have to give a little more credit to his bets/raises) OR you've seen something that stands out (say, capping a multiway pot with A4s from MP or cold-calling 3 bets PF with KTo {saw this 2 nights ago}).

Keep in mind that often the "why" is as important as the "what".

hope this one worked out for you?
ThisHo

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Fold this when it gets back to you preflop. KJs is just too weak to play here. Postflop play is fine, even though it looks like button has AK. This is why you should've folded preflop [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Horrible.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Easy fold preflop, you put yourself in the very tough situation. I find these hands cost me the most.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

How can you suggest that a PF fold is correct and then go on to say that Hero should be calling the river. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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nothing wrong with the PF raise, but CO and Button probably aren't thinking that you're stealing here and probably aren't trying to resteal.

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Since CO posted a blind, my thoughts were that he might think I'm stealing. Once BB caps, I realise that at least one of them has got a hand.

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hope this one worked out for you?

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Not this time. I had CO beat, but not Button. I'll post their actual hands later if anyone still cares.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Agree with Crunch. You should of folded preflop. Your hand is just to susceptable and you have to cold-call to see the flop.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Getting over 5:1 this is an easy preflop call.

You're not beating too many hands by the river IMO, just JJ, AQ, or an unlikely AT. But getting 14:1 on the river, I'm calling.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

9:2 (more likely 10:2) -- fold preflop with a strong drawing hand...are you all kidding?

Flop is check/call -- you're not folding anybody, and you have about break even equity. The rest looks fine.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

folding KJs in this situation is retarded...postflop, i'd check/call, you arent getting anyone to fold

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

agreed

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Agree with Crunch. You should of folded preflop. Your hand is just to susceptable and you have to cold-call to see the flop.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! This must be why I crush the 2/4 so easily. You guys are playing scared and making terrible folds! No justification for folding this preflop! You need to call 1BB, and the pot is offering you 5BB (Actually better because you can be about 99.9% the poster will call the additional bet) and you want to fold because you only have KJ suited? WOW! Absolutely terrible. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

I think folding preflop is completely nuts. you're getting 11.5:2. KJs isn't that bad is it??

the rest of the hand I like, although I might c/r the turn if the preflop action wasn't so heavy. Is that crazy?

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Everyone who advocated folding preflop is aware that hero is open-raising from the hijack with a poster in the cut-off, right? You are aware of how position (and posters) alter raising standards and people's perception of them, right?

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Flop is check/call -- you're not folding anybody, and you have about break even equity. The rest looks fine.

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I had two reasons for betting out: pot equity and hoping to slow the other two down, is this kind of thinking out of line?

The situation I wanted to avoid was me checking, CO betting and Button raising making me face two bets. I still have odds to call, but there's a risk CO will reraise behind me.

With my line at least Button slowed down (perhaps he would have anyway) and I got to close the action on the flop.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Don't raise KJs in MP3 pre-flop. No, you should not fold when it comes back to you pre-flop.

Flop you check and 3-bet after CO bets and button calls.

Turn you bet and call a raise.

And river you check/call.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

If there's a decent chance they will both just call, then it is good. However, if one raises and the other calls, you are still putting two bets on that street. Furthermore, it could go bet/raise/reraise, and then you are putting in three bets on the flop. Furthermore, given the pot size, you'd be wrong to fold for 2 cold anyway (heck, you're not far from EV neutral on all the flop bets anyway). So I'd rather check and view the action.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Anyone advocating folding KJ suited preflop needs to lay off the rock or quit poker. Kj suited in late position is a powerful hand. Multiway the threat of domination as not neaarly as pronounced. You shudnt lead the flop because it might come back as 3 bets to call. ALso u might consider that their are probably 2 Aces out so your draw as not as strong a su think though still worth seeing to the river. You absolutely have to call the river. FOlding in this situation is horrible.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Don't raise KJs in MP3 pre-flop. No, you should not fold when it comes back to you pre-flop.

Flop you check and 3-bet after CO bets and button calls.

Turn you bet and call a raise.

And river you check/call.

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Wow, almost none of this is a good idea. The river is probably close, the turn I dislike, and the preflop and flop advice are atrocious (other than not folding).

Edit: the river's not close, it's fine, i just reviewed the hand. I stand by the rest of my criticism however.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Don't raise KJs in MP3 pre-flop. No, you should not fold when it comes back to you pre-flop.

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Are you kidding me? You have an excellent hand KJ suited against a poster, the button, and the blinds and you advocate not raising this hand? Only a dope would limp in this position.

I like your bet on the flop. As people have pointed out there is the chance that you will get 3 bet. At this point I'll take my chance. This is a big pot, and I want to maximize my chance to take it down. I do not think check calling is good here. I'll call a raise if it comes back to me. I check call the turn and river. I think you played it well.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Preflop is fine. Flop bet sucks. You barely have equity, and I'd much rather let the other players keep the initiative until my draw comes in.

-SmileyEH

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Agree with Crunch. You should of folded preflop. Your hand is just to susceptable and you have to cold-call to see the flop.

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I'm not sure what you're agreeing with? I think folding pre-flop is horrible.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Thanks for all the comments, guys. Interesting to note the wide range of recommendations.

What I took with me from the discussion is this: Should I play this hand today I would not bet out the flop, otherwise I'd play it the same.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Fold this when it gets back to you preflop. KJs is just too weak to play here. Postflop play is fine, even though it looks like button has AK. This is why you should've folded preflop


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Horrible.

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Why is folding KJs when you have to call 2 bets cold horrible? You have a weak hand that's easily dominated. Plus, you have brutal reverse implied odds. If he's 3 betting with a hand like QQ, you won't win much if you hit a K, and if he has AK you'll be spewing the whole way.

Also, not to say that we shouldn't necessarily be questioning what he writes, but I vaguely recall reading in SSH that you should treat calling a reraise and a cap behind you the same way that you should have treat calling 2 bets cold if you haven't entered a pot.

PS: If you don't like my advice, you could at least have the decency to explain your reasoning so that we might both learn something instead of making some wiseass one liner.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Posts like this make you sound like a total dumbass.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

preflop I don't think a call is terrible, but I think a fold might be better. it's very close. you have to greatly discount your pair value. and you don't get a lot of value from your draws three-way (also w/ good chance of one dropping on the flop).

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

Reverse implied odds are killer here my friend. 5.5-1 is good, but out of position with KJs I would fold.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Don't raise KJs in MP3 pre-flop. No, you should not fold when it comes back to you pre-flop.

Flop you check and 3-bet after CO bets and button calls.

Turn you bet and call a raise.

And river you check/call.

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Oh god that is just really bad. Really, really bad. If you can't open with KJs from MP3, what IS strong enough? Hell, read dependent I'm probably opening with as low as KJo, much less suited. KJo unfortunately not strong enough to play when it's two bets back to me but it's going to steal enough to be profitable from there. KJs, though, no debate about it. Open raise all day.

I love the play of this hand but I probably don't lead the flop given the aggression. The pot is too big to fold with TPWK but you don't have the equity to throw money around. Probably check/call all the way down if you don't hit an ace or a nine.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

just to clarify: initial pf raise is def fine.

Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Preflop is fine. Flop bet sucks. You barely have equity, and I'd much rather let the other players keep the initiative until my draw comes in.


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Re: KJs gets capped preflop and flops OESD
 

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Reverse implied odds are killer here my friend. 5.5-1 is good, but out of position with KJs I would fold.

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The reverse implied odds are pretty small with somewhat decent postflop play. The implied odds of the draw are much larger. Getting those pot odds, folding would be horrible.