My weak blind defense with ATs
 

BB is a fairly tight-aggressive (15/8.5/2) over about 100 hands, I suspected that he does adjust his raising standards based on position, and that he has just had a bad run of cards.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (4.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

Why don't you fire at this flop?

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB is a fairly tight-aggressive (15/8.5/2) over about 100 hands, I suspected that he does adjust his raising standards based on position, and that he has just had a bad run of cards.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (4.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB

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I dont see much you can do here... possibly take a shot on the turn? Betting the river is useless obviously.

Sometimes Ill go to war here and c/r flop and lead turn to boot out the better ace, but seeing as he is content to check down his AK, either take a shot on the turn or have "nh" ready to go in the chat box

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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Why don't you fire at this flop?

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Because I'm scared of the cap? and I didn't connect with the board...

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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Why don't you fire at this flop?

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Firing at this flop will cause AJ, AQ, or AK to raise for a free card, and will cause 99-AA to raise as well, it does nothing, and hero still doesnt know if he can continue with trying to push button off a hand

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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Why don't you fire at this flop?

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Because I'm scared of the cap? and I didn't connect with the board...

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yeah, firing on the flop is only to assume Button isn't going to reraise. firing on the turn is probably the best idea, and if he calls, fire again on the river and hope to fold is AK.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

I guess I play differently then you guys. You're calling a cap PF and willing to check it down?

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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I guess I play differently then you guys. You're calling a cap PF and willing to check it down?

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apparently you do. you like bettting into a preflop capper after missing the entire flop and then, i'd assume you'd fold to a reraise? you wasted money for nothing.

and i suggested firing on the turn and river, not for value, but fold as he seems to be playing his AK weakly and you could have fold equity here.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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I guess I play differently then you guys. You're calling a cap PF and willing to check it down?

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apparently you do. you like bettting into a preflop capper after missing the entire flop and then, i'd assume you'd fold to a reraise? you wasted money for nothing.

and i suggested firing on the turn and river, not for value, but fold as he seems to be playing his AK weakly and you could have fold equity here.

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If he calls on the turn, he'll probably call again on the river, I take one shot on the turn and then check it down and give up

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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Why don't you fire at this flop?

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Because I'm scared of the cap? and I didn't connect with the board...

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yeah, firing on the flop is only to assume Button isn't going to reraise. firing on the turn is probably the best idea, and if he calls, fire again on the river and hope to fold is AK.

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I was thinking of firing the turn, but I was quite afraid of a raise, and I didn't really know how to proceed if he did that -- basically, if he could be trying to steal again, or if he was pulling some weird slowplay move, so I just checked.

If villain bet at me, I probably would have peeled the flop, and if fired again on the turn, I'd fold.

If he fired the turn after the flop check, I probably would have called him down...not sure....

This hand really confused the hell outta me.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

God forbid someone ask a question? JHC. Clearly your line is 100% foolproof and the only one that's perfect.

I don't get it. You call a cap and check/call, check/fold?

Is that the action you're reccomending?

check and if he checks bet/fold the turn?

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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Why don't you fire at this flop?

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Because I'm scared of the cap? and I didn't connect with the board...

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yeah, firing on the flop is only to assume Button isn't going to reraise. firing on the turn is probably the best idea, and if he calls, fire again on the river and hope to fold is AK.

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I was thinking of firing the turn, but I was quite afraid of a raise, and I didn't really know how to proceed if he did that -- basically, if he could be trying to steal again, or if he was pulling some weird slowplay move, so I just checked.

If villain bet at me, I probably would have peeled the flop, and if fired again on the turn, I'd fold.

If he fired the turn after the flop check, I probably would have called him down...not sure....

This hand really confused the hell outta me.

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I think the best way to play this hand is betting the turn and checking the river through if called. This avoids facing a steal bet if you check the turn, and gives you max fold equity to a hand better than yours. Also, I dont think button wants to dick around with raising QJ on a steal after you just capped preflop, so betting here allows you to safely fold to a raise.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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God forbid someone ask a question? JHC. Clearly your line is 100% foolproof and the only one that's perfect.

I don't get it. You call a cap and check/call, check/fold?

Is that the action you're reccomending?

check and if he checks bet/fold the turn?

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What range of hands is he capping with that I am beating? Only a bluff, one that I wouldn't expect a player like this to make. If you're regularly 3betting with ATs and betting into the PF capper, you need to seriously re-evaluate your game. Betting the flop is probably the dumbest idea, IMO.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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What range of hands is he capping with that I am beating

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You don't ask yourself this question on the flop call?

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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What range of hands is he capping with that I am beating

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You don't ask yourself this question on the flop call?

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If he had bet, I'm getting 9.5SB to draw. If he is capping with KK/QQ/JJ, my A is a clean 3 outs and my T is 0, but if he's capping with AK, my A outs are 0, but my T outs are roughly 2 (as I might connect but still lose if a K falls), so we count my 2 overs as probably about 2.5 outs total. I also have a backdoor nut flush draw valued at about 1.5 outs, so thats 4 outs total. I need about 10:1 to make the call with 4 outs -- I think this is a pretty simple peel.

Elaborate on what you think a bet is going to accomplish on the flop, and how are we to proceed based on his actions?

And folding to the preflop cap is horrible.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

You called it weak blind defense. What do you mean by that?

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

When villain open-raises from the button, he could have almost anything since he's in an obvious steal situation. That's why we 3-bet our ATs; our hand compares favorably to his extremely broad range of raising hands.

When villain then caps, his range of hands gets narrowed down. Unless he is a maniacal bluff-raiser who can't get away from a steal attempt (and there are some out there), our hand no longer looks so good relative to his range of hands. Still, we're getting very good odds to call that preflop cap, so we do so. Folding to the cap would be a clear error.

On the flop, betting out accomplishes nothing. Most players who attempted a steal PF will automatically raise any lead-off bet in this sort of situation, so all you do is toss in two bets when you have nothing, and you get no information at all from it. Not good.

When villain checks behind, it tells us he's either playing his overcards very weakly, or he was just screwing around PF. Either way, it now becomes reasonable to bet the turn, hoping to fold him out right now.

Based on your comments in this thread, it sounds like blind defense is a problem spot for you, as it is for many players. It is easy to spew a bunch of chips by getting into pissing contests over the blinds. Don't do it. Its one thing to defend your blinds when the situation warrants, but if you go into every steal situation assuming that your opponent is on a pure bluff, these spots are going to be very -EV for you in the long run.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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God forbid someone ask a question? JHC. Clearly your line is 100% foolproof and the only one that's perfect.

I don't get it. You call a cap and check/call, check/fold?

Is that the action you're reccomending?

check and if he checks bet/fold the turn?

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hey, Lazy- calm down dude. you suggested playing one way, i suggested another. someone else may come up with something completely different. no need to catch attitude. for all i know, if there is a "wrong" way to play this hand, mine may be the worst.

why i suggested what i did:
1. weakness in his flop play after preflop cap.
2. he's tight-aggressive.
3. he might fold thinking we have a pair of some kind.
4. i'd bet the river as well simply because if he has UI overcards, he might call the turn bet to try and improve on the river. when he doesn't, he may fold and we win. that's all.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

Bump.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

My gut instinct is to bet the turn. You can get better hands (AJ,AK,AQ) to fold, a raise or call and you are done. But on the turn your fold equity is the highest imho. It is a bluff, but based on your betting pattern and if the villian is thinking, not a bad one. It makes it look like you whiffed on your check-raise and are betting out again and arent afraid of his hand and chances are extremely slim that you win this UI on the river.

Re: My weak blind defense with ATs
 

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God forbid someone ask a question? JHC. Clearly your line is 100% foolproof and the only one that's perfect.

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I'd suggest that you're going to get a lot more out of your time here if you grow a thicker skin. The post that provoked this reply was responding in kind to your previous posts, and neither of you seemed to be doing anything more than arguing your respective positions. Whatever. Just a friendly bit of advice.

A flop bet gets us into trouble. The problem is, his pf action would seem to indicate that he he's going to be willing to spend some bets post flop. If it's a pure steal, he knows he has to fire on the flop and often on the turn (at least) after the cap. This means he'll usually be planning to strongly represent a hand post flop.

If he's on a steal, you're going to get raised a lot. Not terrible in itself, but where do you go from there? Do we take it to 3 bets and hope he backs down? He's going to raise a very high percentage of the hands he'd cap pf with, so we pretty much have to either 3-bet or lead the turn.

Also remember that we're OOP, so we're committed to firing multiple shells if we seize the initiative on the flop. Any check by us is going to lead to an insta-bet unless we've been going crazy with c/r's or something -- we forfeit all our fold equity, and shouldn't check unless we plan to fold. We also tend to tie him to the pot if it goes 3 bets on the flop.

I don't mind firing if I think I have the best hand or that I can push him off a better one... I just don't think a flop lead is the way to go. If we're prepared to put in 3 bets on the flop, it's much better to take the cap out of the equation and c/r instead. We don't really mind if we whiff, and checking gives us flexibility. We can decide to c/r the flop. We might opt instead to see how we like the turn before making a move. We can take a passive line if we think he's flat-out bluffing and want to encourage him to keep doing so (we'd probably prefer that he fold the turn, but it's close enough that we might take the chance). We also might call/fold depending on our read.

There are a lot of cards that improve our hand, so I'm not unhappy getting to the turn inexpensively and taking it from there. I check and see what happens. My response to a bet would be player dependent.

Once he checks through, I lead the turn. If he raises, we can easily fold -- he might be taking a shot with nothing, but more often we're up against at least strong overs that he's planning to check behind UI on the river. With a stronger ace I might call a raise vs a known aggressive opponent with the intention of seeing a showdown... but we don't beat anything here except a pure bluff, which probably has at least 6 outs against us even if we're ahead, whereas we might well be drawing slim or dead. Calling a turn raise also commits us to calling a river bet, as we have to conclude that the combined chances of being ahead + staying ahead are sufficient to compensate for our apparent equity deficit re. winning via improvement -- we can't know which cards are scary for us in that case, so we have to call the river no matter what drops.

If he calls our turn bet in this hand, I probably fire again on the river... though somewhat reluctantly. It's true that we don't have to take down the pot very often vs a better hand for it to be a profitable move, but his call would seem to indicate that he's going to see a showdown a significant % of the time (his implied odds might just be good enough to peel with 2 overs vs a pair if he thinks he can get 2 bets out of us, but factor in reverse domination and the chance he's drawing dead and it's never going to be better than close to neutral EV unless there's a reasonable prospect of winning UI). It doesn't seem likely that he has a pair unless he's slowplaying, which is probably the least likely scenario given your pf 3-bet + the fact that Villain was presented as seemingly fairly reasonable.

So... we conclude that his flop check would seem to indicate weak/tight tendencies. It's difficult to know whether they will manifest themselves in the failure to bet strong overs for value/bluff equity even though he plans to show down or a willingness to fold to aggression UI, but I none the less think bet/folding the river is the best play -- we're unlikely to be raised when behind unless he's got a monster, and he's going to find it hard to call down big aces vs a pf 3-bet + multiple street aggression + a scary board if he's anywhere close to weak/tight.