$2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

dont feel like looking up the hand history, but pretty sure I remember it correctly.

PP $2k, 3 handed.

pretty solid, but not overly scary regular opens to 70 on the button, I call with KK, BB a 38/20/4 (those stats are SH'd though.) he is slightly on the loose side, but a good bit more agg. than is prob. right. he has won several pots with aggression.

he calls.

flop J8h4h my kings are black.

i lead for 210, bb makes it 500.

after my bet, i have 2300 left. he has $5-6k.

whats my play from here?

thanks.

fsuplayer

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

flop J8h4h my kings are black...

All hearts or J off suit?

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

sry, flop was J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

I don't like "trapping" with AA/KK out of position like that and would have reraised preflop. Had I just called like you I would have checkraised the flop as well. Regarding how you actually played it, the choices are he either has AJ/KJ and is testing you, a flush draw trying to inhibit a turn bet if no heart appears, or a hand that beats yours. I would probably call and lead the turn if no heart appears and see what he does. If he then just calls that, then there will be nothing other than a blocking bet left for the river. His reaction to a lead by you on the turn will probably provide the correct read on his hand in most cases, though AA probably would just call along behind.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

Button folds on flop I guess??

I like Bluffthis´s line (and agree that the trap is not something Im fond of OOP).
That said I´m not sure what Í´d do if a heart falls on the turn - and Im very interested in hearing more opinions.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

i dont normally trap in that situation, but i had called several raises and pretty much check folded all but on in the last several orbits.

I had planned a big CR, but I didnt want to risk a free card on that drawy board.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

How about all in after his raise on flop? Just a thought.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about all in after his raise on flop? Just a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

one i considered as well.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

id def move allin on the flop if his raise wasnt so small... that tiny raise looks like a J or maybe a set... a draw seems unlikely, but who knows. there is a couple regalar multitable guys who play alot of short handed and always make these gay babyraises often with flush draw in pos. id still prob move in, but i dont love that... i feel like thats might be the best way to get it in against AJ. if he has a draw and folds... thats ok too.
BTW/ i think a stop and go is a pretty bad play here... if the turn blanks off and you 800, TP is going into the muck pretty fast... ppl dont really play draws/ bluffs like that.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

"If he then just calls that, then there will be nothing other than a blocking bet left for the river."

It seems like that after he bets the turn, there is going to be too much money in the pot to fold. Since you mentioned the option of a blocking bet on the river, I got the impression that you were saying that folding was an option at some point if the turn was bet. However, you didn't say how much you advised the "hero" in the hand to bet, so I can't put exact numbers on it. I'll try some projected ones though, to see if I can understand this better:
Preflop pot has approx. 160
Flop - If hero in the hand calls the raise to 500, that would make the pot stand at about 1,160. Hero has 2,300 left. Assuming he bets 800 on the turn, he would have 1500 left and if only called on the turn there would be 2,760 in the pot on the river. In my opinion hero is pot committed if he bets the turn with 1500 left and 2760 in the pot. Anyobdy agree / disagree and if so why?

"His reaction to a lead by you on the turn will probably provide the correct read on his hand in most cases, though AA probably would just call along behind. "

I don't get why AA would just call behind. It seems like an all-in or fold play might be most common, with the possible draws out and the amount of money that would be in the pot after you led the turn.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If he then just calls that, then there will be nothing other than a blocking bet left for the river."

It seems like that after he bets the turn, there is going to be too much money in the pot to fold. Since you mentioned the option of a blocking bet on the river, I got the impression that you were saying that folding was an option at some point if the turn was bet.

"His reaction to a lead by you on the turn will probably provide the correct read on his hand in most cases, though AA probably would just call along behind. "

I don't get why AA would just call behind. It seems like an all-in or fold play might be most common, with the possible draws out and the amount of money that would be in the pot after you led the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding on the turn is a possible option if he were raised. And AA will call behind a lot more than you think since he has position and probably doesn't put hero on a draw. As for being pot committed after making a blocking bet, he might well be, with the result that if he is raised there he might make a player dependent decision to call to try to snap off a bluff.

This is all-around a difficult situation, though I believe it was necessarily made so because of a failure to either reraise preflop or checkraise the flop.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

[ QUOTE ]
And AA will call behind a lot more than you think since he has position and probably doesn't put hero on a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought it was clear, but the button did indeed fold the flop.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

I'm votin for the all-in move on the flop. It sucks if he has a set but by your description of the guy it seems like the hand range is much wider 9T two hearts aj kj, pure bluff or two pair. If you lead some of your draws in this situation and make similar moves its possible he may misread it for an ace high flush draw and call with top pair and it will make him think twice about baby raising his draws. With 1200 in the pot on the turn and 2300 back, a stop and go commits you and if a heart comes it will take balls to fire possibly suicidally.

Another fun line taken straight from the low limit NL is to check call him down no matter what comes. It the riskiest but also may be the best against the guy who loves to bluff. It will slow him down considerably and probably have him talking to himself if he loses the hand. I play highly aggressive poker and this is the line that drives me crazy the most and is probably most effective against me.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

I'm somewhat out of my element here, so I'd love to hear why this isn't necessarily a good idea, but I think my plan against an opponent who has been somewhat more aggressive than I think is optimal is to call with the plan of c/r'ing any non-heart turn. This hinges on me guessing that he'll bet again on the turn, of course, as I'm not enthusiastic about giving a free river with this board.

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

Im this spot I'm just trying to get my stack in the middle however I can on the flop.

-Jason

*RESULTS*
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm votin for the all-in move on the flop. It sucks if he has a set but by your description of the guy it seems like the hand range is much wider 9T two hearts aj kj, pure bluff or two pair. If you lead some of your draws in this situation and make similar [all in] moves its possible he may misread it for an ace high flush draw and call with top pair and it will make him think twice about baby raising his draws.

[/ QUOTE ]


wow, you just saved me 5 mins typing up that exact line of thought for the hand.

well done.

turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

river:3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]


I suckout g00t. he had J8o. whew.


after the hand i felt fishy all over, esp. with gonores watching, but thinking about it later, I still liked my play.

just wanted to check and make sure.


thanks guys,

fsuplayer

Re: $2k NL....KK 3 handed
 

All in.