Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

Live 5/10 at the Wynn.

Passed to me (~2k) in MP and I wing out 30 with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Called by button (~1400) and BB (very good player who reads me well, has ~2k).

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks. I check. Button bets a small handful, which ends up being 120 or so. BB calls. I call.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks. I bet 250. BB insta-calls. BB thinks for a little bit and calls.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB quick-checks. I move all in.

Justification for my play to come later if I can manage to concoct some sort of convincing argument. Otherwise just the results.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

I like the river, especially if you normally bet your draws but checked this time...I almost always bet my draws so this would be a perfect play for me based on teh flop action. Let me get this straight though, Button overbet the flop, you bet turn, button insta calls, BB thinks for a little and calls?

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

it doesn't look like bb likes his hand too much up until the turn, so what you're praying for is that bb has made a flush on the river. even so, i think bb would've bet his flush on the river, knowing that was a card that he would think you and button may not have wanted to see. i'm not sure if bb would call even with a flush on the river, smelling something suspicious. he would have to put you on a pure bluff to call, knowing that AK/AQ/AT would probably want a cheap showdown.

i'm not sure what my course of action would be...but if you feel that you have a crazy image (ie calling all ins with 93o) then the push is fine. if you're a tight ass mofo like me, i like a 1/2-3/4 pot bet (around 600-800), which has a better chance of getting a call from at least the button or the bb, and if bb has a flush, he will certainly pay that off.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Justification for my play to come later after I can manage to concoct some sort of convincing argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I luv that quote... will be stealing it for my own donk plays

edit- er.. not to mean that your's was a bad play, I like it.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

I'll give a go at guessing your reasoning. button is more likely to have called your raise with a drawing hand than high cards. so on the flop there's a good chance he's betting a draw, maybe he can take it down and maybe he gets a free ride to the river if he gets called. you realize this and bet the turn to punish him. if you were heads up it could almost be a value bet with king high (!!).

the fly in the ointment is the BB, what does he have? very hard to put him on a hand playing this way, it's hard to put him on a draw with a flop check call, so I lean towards a made hand of some kind, probably pretty good but not great. would he play AK this way? it's possible I guess. I can't come up with a hand that would play the flop and turn this way.

--turnipmonster

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

I thought the button is more likely to have a flush [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. the BB check calling a pot overbet (120 into a 90 pot) would be a pretty bad play unless he was sure he was getting paid. I can't put him on a flush draw for that reason.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

good point turnip

however, i'm having difficulty as well as to what bb could be holding...perhaps AK, but i see that giving up on the turn to a bet and a call.

bottom set could be the most likely, but i don't think bb is going to call an all in with that. plus i think a set, two pair hand would've spoke up earlier in the hand to protect against the diamonds.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

I don't like the turn or river.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight though, Button overbet the flop, you bet turn, button insta calls, BB thinks for a little and calls?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. That's correct.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

I am fairly new to these limits, but why can't BB have Ax [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Even A3)?

We know that OP said the BB could read him well. Doesn't this essentially give the BB better implied odds?

With confident reads, he might play any PP or any suited A.

Am I way off base with this?

A Twist!
 

Hey all,

[ QUOTE ]
Live 5/10 at the Wynn.

Passed to me (~2k) in MP and I wing out 30 with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Called by button (~1400) and BB (very good player who reads me well, has ~2k).

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks. I check. Button bets a small handful, which ends up being 120 or so. BB calls. I call.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks. I bet 250. BB insta-calls. BB thinks for a little bit and calls.

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB quick-checks. I move all in.

Justification for my play to come later if I can manage to concoct some sort of convincing argument. Otherwise just the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it affects the discussion and/or what The Ocho's proper play was on each street, I was the BB in this hand.

Also, incidentally, the flop was:

A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

And, I remember the button being a little deeper (a little shy of 2k), but I could be wrong about that.

I'll give my thoughts and share what I held later.

ML4L

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

My problem with this hand Ocho is that you raise preflop and then check and overcall a bet. In my view, out of all the actions you can take on the flop, this one reveals the most about your hand. 5-10 with 200bb I think I'm betting this flop 100% of the time when I raised preflop, and I'm not sure why you wouldn't. Worse draws are going to call, and even if you get CR you are plenty deep where its unliklely someone's going to blow you off your hand.

Your flop play really screams draw or big hand (with a draw about 2-5x more likely in my book knowing your play). If im ML4L in this spot I am spooked. But the thing is, ML4L can probably define your hand pretty good into either monster or draw, so he can continue with something like top pair. Your river play is weird too. Given the fact that ML4L is the BB, I wouldn't give him a spot to make any sort of laydown. Plus, the button could've been drawing to a flush in which case you end up getting the money in anyway, likely.

I'm fairly sure here that ML4L doesnt have a draw, but its hard to tell what actually happened in the turn on this hand. If you put a gun to my head I'd wager ML4L had something like AQ AK and button called with his lame ass flush.

Thats my view on the action,
-Jason

Re: A Twist!
 

oh. since you're in the hand, ocho needs to fold pf, and leave the table.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

looks to be interesting...

Re: A Twist!
 

my guesses for ml4l's (btw, what does ml4l stand for?) hand are AK and possibly A3s. it's possible he was going to stop and go the turn, but changed his mind based on a read/tell.

the revised flop gives him the possibility to have a really big draw (4d5d) though, can he and play it this way?

on the flop the pot is 90 bucks and he checks and calls 120. this is problematic, because I said before I would think it's weird for mike to play a drawing hand in this position and he has to be fairly certain he'll either scare everyone into checking the turn or extract a lot of $$ if he hits on the turn.

on the turn, the pot is 450 on the turn and when the action gets back to him there's 950 in the pot and it's 250 to him, so it's clearly a +EV call if all his outs are clean (hard to say).

on the river, it would be very odd for him to take any line that involves checking other than check fold. my conclusion is that there's little to no chance ml4l plays 4d5d this way from this position, because of the flop play.

--turnipmonster

Re: A Twist!
 

Mike,

not to hijack this thread, but you should repost in that thread you started about all the games spread in Vegas....curious about the details....


FWIW, I would've thought there's a 100% chance that Ocho has the nuts by the way he played this hand.....

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

I think ML4L has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the Button has 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Button instcalled and ML4L folded.

Basically on the flop if ML4L has a good read on you he calls with what is likely to be the best hand and if it isn't he has runner runner outs - noting the fact that with the button in with his two cards whatever they are he could be position betting with not much but he doesn't want to check raise because you still have to act, and he's not expecting you to check raise when he has called.

On the turn, ML4L has picked up his backdoor draw but he probably doesn't like the fact that both of you are still in, but the diamond didn't hit and he thinks he has implied odds against the hands that beat him? Though he probably thinks his hand is best anyway.

The river explains itself with the above logic. Though I'm probably totally off.

Re: A Twist!
 

[ QUOTE ]
.

the revised flop gives him the possibility to have a really big draw (4d5d) though, can he and play it this way?


[/ QUOTE ]on the old flop, this draw was just as big. and perhaps, better, bc the hand would be more disguised.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

Im going to go out on a limb and say that TheOcho won this hand

Re: A Twist!
 

[ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I would've thought there's a 100% chance that Ocho has the nuts by the way he played this hand.....

[/ QUOTE ]

So would ml4l, so would I, so would many. But the button was weak enough player that he most likely would not.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im going to go out on a limb and say that TheOcho won this hand

[/ QUOTE ]

i think thats a good guess

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

Thats a weird play. I can't think of any reasonably played hand that the bb could have, so I'm just going to have to go out on a limb and say he's a fish. Other than that, I think the bb made two pair on the turn. That's the only thing i can come up with. If he made a set he needed to bet the turn hard to shut out everyone else. I think the button was on the flush draw, or mid to high pair and the ace pissed him off. And you have a flush. ace high

Results and some thoughts
 

Well, I usually lead flop here. Strassa pretty much gives my rationale for that. Here I didn't do that. Was hoping to take one off and also to mix up my play a bit because I lead that flop 99% of the time. When the flop action gets back around to me and I call, ML4L knows I have monster/draw. That's too bad, but I'm looking for bigger fish to fry (AKA the button). Plus, in all the years ML4L and I have played together, I can count on one hand the number of times we've stacked each other off. It's just the way our playing styles mix, I guess. So, if I get nutty, he ain't paying me off anyways.

So the turn comes off and I lead. This does two things for me:
1) Read Turnip's post. I want to take the play away from the button. By leading, I can win the pot here, or on river when I follow through. Maybe he has a big hand like 2-pair and I can blast him off it on river. Whatever happens I have the lead and can apply some pressure to weakish button.

2) Tries to sell to ML4L that I have a hand so that he can safely muck. Or just confuse him a little bit. Whatever.

Well, both call and on the river I get lucky. ML4L checks, presumably to check-fold, as Turnip wrote. I ain't stacking him off or even getting paid a large bet (again, because of prior history) if he somehow did have a super-draw that connected. And I don't want to let button off the hook if he had a draw that hit or an already made hand. So I'm all in and hoping button has enough hand to call me, which is pretty likely given the action thus far.

Both the button and ML4L folded. Button muttered something about having two pair. Oh well.

Re: Smoke Screens (Wynn 5/10)
 

[ QUOTE ]
so I'm just going to have to go out on a limb and say he's a fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice read...

ML4L

Re: Results and some thoughts
 

did Mike name his hand? because he can reasonably have a few, in particular suited Ax clubs and AK-AJ - remember this was live not online, the button is live and deep, and he could well have pegged Ocho on a draw on the turn. or a missfire with two pair and a bad read. or weaker diamonds if Ocho gave his betting away on the river and Mike sneaked out. but most likely it was an ace +/- the clubs.

Re: Results and some thoughts
 

Matt, I don't understand exactly what you're saying. Perhaps it's a reading comprehension problem. I'll try and work through sentence by sentence.

PS- I recall you guaranteed some months ago on this forum that one of the Raleigh boys was going to win a wsop bracelet this year. Well played. You are a man of your word.

[ QUOTE ]
did Mike name his hand? because he can reasonably have a few, in particular suited Ax clubs and AK-AJ

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he didn't. Those hands do compose a fair majority of his hand range. In addition, I would throw in 45 club/diamond. Not much else.

[ QUOTE ]
remember this was live not online, the button is live and deep, and he could well have pegged Ocho on a draw on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

By "he," do you mean button or ML4L? I'll assume ML4L because button was live. So yeah, I figure ML4L pretty much knew what I had on the flop, the turn bet was in part to throw a little confusion in and maybe he mucks an ace. He still knows it's fairly likely I'm drawing.

[ QUOTE ]
or a missfire with two pair and a bad read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean him or me? Who might've mis-fired? Who had bad read?

[ QUOTE ]
or weaker diamonds if Ocho gave his betting away on the river and Mike sneaked out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could ML4L have diamonds? I did pretty much give away the fact that I nutted on river, but it was unlikely that he pays off a big bet to me anyways with any flush other than nuts in this 3-way. I was gunning for button in this pot, and head-up against ML4L I certainly play the river differently.

[ QUOTE ]
but most likely it was an ace +/- the clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I thought so too. Though his flop card correction post makes me believe it was 45 diamond or club. Probably clubs, because he would have bragged to me that he layed down diamonds after I later told him I had nuts.

I Held...
 

Hey all,

Well, everyone swung and missed on my hand. But, y'all never had a chance...

For once in my life, I made a better read than The Ocho. When button bet the flop, he had a big hand. Just one of those things you can tell in a live game... I thought he had a set; maybe two pair. So, I decided to take one off with my 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], because I was getting button's stack if I hit my gutshot. The guy was one of those who would be so concerned with "protecting his hand" if the turn was not a diamond that he would bet big, probably another overbet, and pot-stick himself. Plus, I might be able to sell the diamonds since I had been kinda snug postflop that session, and I had backdoor clubs. Kinda a thin call, but I knew my read was right as to his hand, and I thought the guy was a prick, so I wanted to bust him... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, I did not figure The Ocho would call, since he would bet ANY piece of that flop 100% of the time. Make that 99.9% of the time after this hand...

On the turn, I picked up my draw, but I don't know if I would have been able to call if I wasn't closing the action. I had no idea what The Ocho had, so I wasn't putting in $400+ to have to fold to a check-raise. But, fortunately, The Ocho pulled that weird stop-and-go, both allowing me to close the action AND get a good price on my clean 10 outs. My read on the button was now two pair (he mumbled something about The Ocho having AA as he called). My read on The Ocho was that he might have a big hand or might just be messing around. But, again, I was getting 4-1 and still thought the button would pay me if the river was not a diamond. Easy call.

Bluffing the river didn't cross my mind, although maybe it should have. I was just too baffled by The Ocho's play to make a stab at it. Once he overbet, I knew he had the nut flush and was trying to stack the button. He's lucky that I wasn't on diamonds, because I would have mucked my flush.

So, again, there would be no way to really guess my hand without knowing my read on the button...

As to The Ocho's play, I would probably have led the flop, although his stop and go was OK, I guess. Certainly confused the button and I (and might have gotten him to the river cheaper). The river, however, is bad. I think that a bet of about $400 would be perfect. It looks like trip aces making a blocking bet, so button would probably raise his flush if he had one (he didn't come all that way to call when he made his hand). But, if button didn't have a flush, he would pay off with his two pair, and I might have paid off with a second-best hand too. So, he wins more when button doesn't have a flush, but the same amount when button does have a flush, since the button would push.

Thanks for the replies.

Mike

Re: I Held...
 

Yeah, I like your modest river bet idea much much better than my all-in. Even without your read. I really shat the bed here. I think 450 would have been perfect.

How the hell I missed what you saw in button is beyond me. I must have been staring at a cocktail waitress or something. Blech.

[ QUOTE ]
[turn bet] might have gotten him to the river cheaper

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, this saved me about 150 or so. I guess I subconsciously knew he had 2pair and wanted to freeze him from shutting me out of the pot. Yeah. I did. Really.

This hand gets uglier for me everytime I think about it.

Re: I Held...
 

What times are you guys usually in this game? I play it almost everyday. Say hi [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Results and some thoughts
 

Dont you want action with your nut flush? Why go all in when you hit? Why not value bet? I think that was the a bad play that cost you money.