Is this push insane or standard?
 

Im not clever enough to make the converter work, so sorry if this hand looks a little weird.

Anyways, theres 4 players left in a 20+2 SnG. Blinds are 150/300 I am the chipleader and first to act. I am dealt Qc 3d and push.

Thought they cant really call me on the bubble without a monster, so I tend to push almost any 2 cards here. Is that overdoing it and does it ever make sense to raise less in that spot?

Thanks for your help guys



UTG (2760)
UTG+ 1(1640)
SB (1885)
BB (1715)

Hero raises (2760) to 2760
Hero is all-In.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

standard push.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
standard push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly standard. I would fold here unless the others were really tight.

Now if I had 3500 chips and the others had 1500 each I would push. But this situation is far from that.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

anyone who calls without a monster u is the biggest idiot on history, u must have some FE.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

Sure I have some FE. I have that in most hands I play in a SnG. I still don't push any two the first chance I get, especially in a situation like this. I am least likely to push crap UTG and most likely to push crap from SB here.

Hero is in a good seat here. But if called and loses, which is very likely if he is called he is suddenly in desperation mode with 1000 chips and a 300 blind coming in two hands.

Wild aggression on the bubble is a huge leak. Smart aggression is an asset.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

Right, opponents werent especially tight as far as I remember, especially UTG+1 seemed a bit on the loose side. What would be your minimum hand for pushing in this spot or is it mainly opponent-dependent?

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right, opponents werent especially tight as far as I remember, especially UTG+1 seemed a bit on the loose side. What would be your minimum hand for pushing in this spot or is it mainly opponent-dependent?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are solid players (ie, not that loose) I would probably push A8+, 55+, KQs, KJs, QJs, KTs and JTs from UTG. Of course it depends. If I have gotten my big stack through tight play and just winning a few big hands I might push more.

Once I get my stack twice the size of the second largest stack I push a wider range.

I have no idea if I am very tight UTG here though. Perhaps the forum wisdom is to push any two?

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

Thanks a lot for your help Freudian. I am afraid the influence of the "curtains push any 2" philosophy is making me a bit of a maniac in places where I dont really have a clue what im supposed to do. Of course I got called by UTG+1s 44 (that call must be horrible though, I hadnt been pushing a lot ealier) and lost. Got lucky and won the tourn anyway though, so why complain [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

It is neither an obvious, nor a terrible push. Without any read, I just think it is borderline, but probably slightly positive. I would certainly consider what my image already was and what the whether this will strongly impact it.

The call from UTG+1 was horrible. Even if he put you on any two, it was horrible.

Val, you must think a new person is the biggest idiot in history pretty much every SNG you play.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]

The call from UTG+1 was horrible. Even if he put you on any two, it was horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy for you to say. The guy probably heard Vince Van Pattens voice saying "Wow, he has a wired pair of fours" in his head. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wild aggression on the bubble is a huge leak.

[/ QUOTE ]


you are wrong. while i dont think op is quite in push any two situation quite yet, this push is definately +EV (if only marginally so).


edit: check out microbet's post below, which is imo spot on.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

I'd fold this, but it's close. If my chip-lead was to the point that a call would still leave me at chip leader, I'd be pushing any 2. As it stands, a loss kind of hurts you, but blinds don't, so I'd be slightly less aggressive. Still, as others have said, this isn't a bad push by any means.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

Very game dependent. If you put them all on 'tight', it is a push with any two. If you put them all on 'average', it is 63% of hands and Q4o is borderline. If you put them on loose (which you need in order to get 44), only the top 11% of hands are good pushes.

Maybe this means in a $215 you can push with any two, but in a $22 I think you need to at least weed out the crap and maybe have a decent hand.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

I don't mind 2+2ers applying wild aggression. I probably have a much larger calling range against them than most here so it suits me just fine.

So anyone is preaching the "any two" gospel will not get any big objections from me.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not clever enough to make the converter work, so sorry if this hand looks a little weird.

Anyways, theres 4 players left in a 20+2 SnG. Blinds are 150/300 I am the chipleader and first to act. I am dealt Qc 3d and push.

Thought they cant really call me on the bubble without a monster, so I tend to push almost any 2 cards here. Is that overdoing it and does it ever make sense to raise less in that spot?

Thanks for your help guys



UTG (2760)
UTG+ 1(1640)
SB (1885)
BB (1715)

Hero raises (2760) to 2760
Hero is all-In.

[/ QUOTE ]


I would fold this, players probably not sophisticated enough to play as tight as they need to here in a $22. I think it's somewhat overdoing it. What I'd be happier about is a spot where one stack is really short and you can attack the other two, as opposed to them all being equal...gives them slightly more incentive to call.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyone who calls without a monster u is the biggest idiot on history, u must have some FE.

[/ QUOTE ]


Uhhh, you are playing $22 tournaments with idiots, what do you expect?

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

This is a "Giga-push." What I mean is that Gigabet should and will make this play at the $215's, and with any 2. But you're not Gigabet, and you're not playing the $215's. Your opponents simply aren't going to let you push any 2 here, and they're going to call with crap, even if you are pushing any 2, especially if you've been pushing recently.

What annoys me is that a tight image I built up over the first 3 levels dissipates very quickly when I push every other hand on the bubble. People really don't notice when you're not making a sound, but people notice when you bully them around.

Just an aside. Saying that going into maniac mode with a big stack is much more profitable at high levels than at low levels. My mantra is to keep a healthy 8x BB stack as long as possible until ITM, because getting called sucks, and you will get called.

Don't try to build up big stacks like Giga does and go into maniac mode on the bubble. Just get in your blind steal mode and wait for calling to happen (which it will).

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Very game dependent. If you put them all on 'tight', it is a push with any two. If you put them all on 'average', it is 63% of hands and Q4o is borderline. If you put them on loose (which you need in order to get 44), only the top 11% of hands are good pushes.

Maybe this means in a $215 you can push with any two, but in a $22 I think you need to at least weed out the crap and maybe have a decent hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would fold this in basically every game, regardless of reads. Can't quite explain why though...I just feel like my stack size will allow for better spots to come up soon, and it's really risky....you can never know their exact range.

If they are tight its probably slight +EV, but it's a lot easier for them to be a lot looser and make it clear -EV than it is for them to be super super tight and make it clear +EV.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

Don't like it much, especially in a $22.

You're in good shape, but you won't be if you get whacked by any one of these stacks.

If you're going to bully in a $22, at least use position a little better. You pick up the same amount of blinds for considerably less risk.

eastbay

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

btw the previous post I made I think is important. Sometimes you find a situation where you put people on a very tight range and realize the play is very slightly +EV and then make it. However in the process you don't realize that there is almost zero chance that they will play tighter than your range, but quite a signifigant chance that you misjudged and they will be looser, sometimes much so, thus making your play signifigantly -EV.

Bascially it's almost impossible to peg an exact range, so if I take an extreme type of range and put my opponents on it (extreme meaning it's almost impossible they will be tighter), and a play turns out to be only marginally +EV, I will almost never trust my read exactly. I've been surprised by loose calls way too many times.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
However in the process you don't realize that there is almost zero chance that they will play tighter than your range, but quite a signifigant chance that you misjudged and they will be looser, sometimes much so, thus making your play signifigantly -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best thing that has been posted on this forum in the last week.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

I fold in a lower buyin. It is borderline by ICM, but I want to say fold now for a couple reasons.

One - I said borderline before I had played today. I just played for a while and it doesn't really seem close to a push. Second, Curtains and Eastbay say so. But really, even without them saying it feels a lot more clear to me after playing.

PS. I want to brag somewhere to someone and my Wife's asleep and no friends logged onto IM, so I'll bury it here.

My last ten SNGs all $33s
3,1,2,1,3,1,3,1,1,1

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not clever enough to make the converter work, so sorry if this hand looks a little weird.

Anyways, theres 4 players left in a 20+2 SnG. Blinds are 150/300 I am the chipleader and first to act. I am dealt Qc 3d and push.

Thought they cant really call me on the bubble without a monster, so I tend to push almost any 2 cards here. Is that overdoing it and does it ever make sense to raise less in that spot?

Thanks for your help guys



UTG (2760)
UTG+ 1(1640)
SB (1885)
BB (1715)

Hero raises (2760) to 2760
Hero is all-In.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is far from standard in a 20 with a marginal chip lead. I don't think its terrible but probably -$EV unless the blinds are pretty tight.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]

If they are solid players (ie, not that loose) I would probably push A8+, 55+, KQs, KJs, QJs, KTs and JTs from UTG. Of course it depends. If I have gotten my big stack through tight play and just winning a few big hands I might push more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is about a notch too tight even for a lowbuyin SNG. The fact that most people seem to think that the Q3o is borderline should certainly tell you that this range is way tight.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyone who calls without a monster u is the biggest idiot on history, u must have some FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hes playing in a 20+2 ... its filled with idiots.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

i get called by A4o too frequently when i make moves like this.. the only time it works is when one of the other players is very short.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im not clever enough to make the converter work, so sorry if this hand looks a little weird.

Anyways, theres 4 players left in a 20+2 SnG. Blinds are 150/300 I am the chipleader and first to act. I am dealt Qc 3d and push.

Thought they cant really call me on the bubble without a monster, so I tend to push almost any 2 cards here. Is that overdoing it and does it ever make sense to raise less in that spot?

Thanks for your help guys



UTG (2760)
UTG+ 1(1640)
SB (1885)
BB (1715)

Hero raises (2760) to 2760
Hero is all-In.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is far from standard in a 20 with a marginal chip lead. I don't think its terrible but probably -$EV unless the blinds are pretty tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

i ran an icm on this, you need one of the blinds to be a maniac (22+, A2+, k2+, Q9+) in order for it to be -EV. regardless, the matter at hand here is your image which is what it will ultimately destroy.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im not clever enough to make the converter work, so sorry if this hand looks a little weird.

Anyways, theres 4 players left in a 20+2 SnG. Blinds are 150/300 I am the chipleader and first to act. I am dealt Qc 3d and push.

Thought they cant really call me on the bubble without a monster, so I tend to push almost any 2 cards here. Is that overdoing it and does it ever make sense to raise less in that spot?

Thanks for your help guys



UTG (2760)
UTG+ 1(1640)
SB (1885)
BB (1715)

Hero raises (2760) to 2760
Hero is all-In.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is far from standard in a 20 with a marginal chip lead. I don't think its terrible but probably -$EV unless the blinds are pretty tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

i ran an icm on this, you need one of the blinds to be a maniac (22+, A2+, k2+, Q9+) in order for it to be -EV. regardless, the matter at hand here is your image which is what it will ultimately destroy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?? Sounds wrong to me.... and if it's 'correct', well it still sounds wrong [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

(btw, in Eastbay's model how are posted blinds allocated? As still belonging to the stack in question or are they taken out of circulation altogether?)

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im not clever enough to make the converter work, so sorry if this hand looks a little weird.

Anyways, theres 4 players left in a 20+2 SnG. Blinds are 150/300 I am the chipleader and first to act. I am dealt Qc 3d and push.

Thought they cant really call me on the bubble without a monster, so I tend to push almost any 2 cards here. Is that overdoing it and does it ever make sense to raise less in that spot?

Thanks for your help guys



UTG (2760)
UTG+ 1(1640)
SB (1885)
BB (1715)

Hero raises (2760) to 2760
Hero is all-In.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is far from standard in a 20 with a marginal chip lead. I don't think its terrible but probably -$EV unless the blinds are pretty tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

i ran an icm on this, you need one of the blinds to be a maniac (22+, A2+, k2+, Q9+) in order for it to be -EV. regardless, the matter at hand here is your image which is what it will ultimately destroy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you just need 2 of them to be a little too loose.

Its very easy to get it down to only a very marginally EV move which is probably a good enough to go ahead and wait.

Re: Is this push insane or standard?
 

I will say it: this push is terrible. It's not like you've got the whole table dominated chip wise. You lose this and you are the shortstack. You're UTG and playing on the 22's.

It always kills me that people constantly say that the players on the 11s, 22s, and maybe even higher are idiots. This is true for the most part. That means that they will pay you off when you value bet. It also means that pushing in spots like this is pure folly. (Also why I think C betting whiffed AK on level 1 is just chip spewing, but that's another topic altogether.) The risk / reward ratio is horrendous.