Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I have a pet peeve.

I HATE it when people bet the river, and then slow down the game by saying stuff like, "Can you beat a queen?" Etc.

1) I don't like them slowing down the game.
2) When they bet and they're called I think I have "the right" to see it.

How do I discourage my opponents from doing this without alienating myself?

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]

2) When they bet and they're called I think I have "the right" to see it.



[/ QUOTE ]

you do not have this "right". the rule is there to prevent collusion.


[ QUOTE ]


How do I discourage my opponents from doing this without alienating myself?

[/ QUOTE ]

you can't. stop crying and deal with it. it's one of the cons of playing live. like when idiots ask for deck changes, you can't stop them.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

The aggressor shows their hand first. Other players either show their hands or muck them in order around the table. If it is checked down all the way, the player closest to the button shows first then other players can show or muck in order around the table. Simple as that

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2) When they bet and they're called I think I have "the right" to see it.



[/ QUOTE ]

you do not have this "right". the rule is there to prevent collusion.


[/ QUOTE ]

You might be misunderstanding me.

Player A bets the river, Player B calls, Player A talks to player B, Player B shows his cards. Player A mucks.

It sucks.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

say "show or muck"

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

If you're player B, just say "I called you" and wait for him to table his hand. He's the one being the dick.

If you're not in the hand than you have no rights.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]

you can't. stop crying and deal with it. it's one of the cons of playing live. like when idiots ask for deck changes, you can't stop them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong about that.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
say "show or muck"

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sitting at the table, unfortunately.
Edit: I'm sitting, but not the player who's the river caller.

When I'm in the hand, I just sit there and wait. I don't bother to talk to them about it.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
The aggressor shows their hand first. Other players either show their hands or muck them in order around the table. If it is checked down all the way, the player closest to the button shows first then other players can show or muck in order around the table. Simple as that

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the theory, and I like it (with one exception: if there was any aggression at any point during the hand, I want that person to show first, regardless of whether or not the river was checked through (this could be a preflop raised if it were checked to the river)).

However, if there's a player who bets the river and hesitates before showing, trying not to, every time he's at the showdown and unsure of his cards, how do you get that guy to show his cards first, without alienating yourself?

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]

That's the theory, and I like it (with one exception: if there was any aggression at any point during the hand, I want that person to show first, regardless of whether or not the river was checked through (this could be a preflop raised if it were checked to the river)).



[/ QUOTE ]

Then you should play in AC. They have "the last aggressor shows first" rule there.

If the same guy keeps up the I don't want to show nonsense, you can either ask the dealer to remind him or you should learn to just deal with it.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

Players are going to do what players are going to do.

Playing in a 1/2 NL the other day, a player who called my all-in (bitching and moaning about how poor his cards were and he was giving me money but had to 'keep me honest') didn't show his cards.

In this case I was 99+% certain that he's required to show when he called an all-in. I just waited and when he tried to muck, I said to the dealer that I wanted to see his cards. Dealer showed the table (btw, it he was holding middle pair with an A kicker).

Anyway, my point is that if you want to see something or have a question about whether you're entitled, ask the dealer.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The aggressor shows their hand first. Other players either show their hands or muck them in order around the table. If it is checked down all the way, the player closest to the button shows first then other players can show or muck in order around the table. Simple as that

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the theory, and I like it (with one exception: if there was any aggression at any point during the hand, I want that person to show first, regardless of whether or not the river was checked through (this could be a preflop raised if it were checked to the river)).

However, if there's a player who bets the river and hesitates before showing, trying not to, every time he's at the showdown and unsure of his cards, how do you get that guy to show his cards first, without alienating yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

You say, "Show me."

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The aggressor shows their hand first. Other players either show their hands or muck them in order around the table. If it is checked down all the way, the player closest to the button shows first then other players can show or muck in order around the table. Simple as that

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the theory, and I like it (with one exception: if there was any aggression at any point during the hand, I want that person to show first, regardless of whether or not the river was checked through (this could be a preflop raised if it were checked to the river)).

However, if there's a player who bets the river and hesitates before showing, trying not to, every time he's at the showdown and unsure of his cards, how do you get that guy to show his cards first, without alienating yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

You say, "Show me."

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are a few more, just to mix things up:

- "You bet. You show first."
- "I called you. You show."
- "I think the bettor shows first."
- "You bet. Just turn your cards over, please."
etc.

Don't worry about alienating yourself (just be polite about it). You're there to play poker, not get voted homecoming king.


Tom

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I usually just tell the guy to show his cards.

What really annoys me is when I show my hand first and then my opponent holds his cards up and stares at them for 10-15 seconds while shaking his head and dreaming about what might have been before mucking.

That really slows down the game for no reason. You lost the hand, you don't need to grieve, just muck it.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I usually just tell the guy to show his cards.

What really annoys me is when I show my hand first and then my opponent holds his cards up and stares at them for 10-15 seconds while shaking his head and dreaming about what might have been before mucking.

That really slows down the game for no reason. You lost the hand, you don't need to grieve, just muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 30. I'm pretty sure you outdistance me by a couple of years. I for one am relishing the opportunity to do this at regular intervals. Even more when I'm old enough such that the rest of the table expects it just because of my AARP membership. You should too.


<shuffle>
<shuffle>
<scowl>
<muck>

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

The way I understand it, pretty much everyone in this thread is misunderstanding what the OP is trying to say. This is his problem, how I understand it. He gets annoyed, whether he's in a hand or not, at people who bet the river but sort of pussy foot around (if I may use that 1940s term) when it comes time to showdown. I totally agree. It's annoying, and it slows [censored] down. Even if they eventually show, it's just a pain in the ass to coax them to turn them up... I usually don't give a [censored] about alienating people, so I'll just start gesturing annoyedly and tell them, "C'mon, c'mon, flip 'em over..."

Is this what you're talking about?

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I agree, its annoying and unnecessary. I also hate when they finally decide they'll reveal their precious little hand but only flip over one card, then pause and chat and hem and haw (to use another 1940's term) before showing the other. It should be perfectly legal to bitchslap these people.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a pet peeve.

I HATE it when people bet the river, and then slow down the game by saying stuff like, "Can you beat a queen?" Etc.

1) I don't like them slowing down the game.
2) When they bet and they're called I think I have "the right" to see it.

How do I discourage my opponents from doing this without alienating myself?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you aren't rude to the other player, there won't be any problems.

When I call a bet on the river, I sit there silently waiting for my opponent to show or muck. If he starts talking, I'll either say something like "After you, bud" or I'll look at him and just move my finger in a rolling motion. My card protector doesn't move until he has made a decision (There are notable exceptions to this rule, mainly when the other player is awful and I want to remain very friendly with him).

This doesn't do much to speed up the game, but it does maximize your information and make your feelings on the issue pretty well-known.

Justin

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I'm reposting from the other thread of the same topic...

The way I understand it, pretty much everyone in this thread is misunderstanding what the OP is trying to say. This is his problem, how I understand it. He gets annoyed, whether he's in a hand or not, at people who bet the river but sort of pussy foot around (if I may use that 1940s term) when it comes time to showdown. I totally agree. It's annoying, and it slows [censored] down. Even if they eventually show, it's just a pain in the ass to coax them to turn them up... I usually don't give a [censored] about alienating people, so I'll just start gesturing annoyedly and tell them, "C'mon, c'mon, flip 'em over..."
Is this what you're talking about?

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

Wait, whoops... Wrong thread...

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Players are going to do what players are going to do.

Playing in a 1/2 NL the other day, a player who called my all-in (bitching and moaning about how poor his cards were and he was giving me money but had to 'keep me honest') didn't show his cards.

In this case I was 99+% certain that he's required to show when he called an all-in. I just waited and when he tried to muck, I said to the dealer that I wanted to see his cards. Dealer showed the table (btw, it he was holding middle pair with an A kicker).

Anyway, my point is that if you want to see something or have a question about whether you're entitled, ask the dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought this too, but as long as they're calling you, they don't have to show it.

This discussion is (hopefully) about when they're being called, not when they're calling other people.

The reason to ask to see a caller's cards is to prevent collusion, which you should have known he wasn't, since it was the two of you at the river. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Asking to see a loser's cards is in extremely poor taste (unless said loser bet and then didn't show). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

However, I can understand your impression that a caller of an all-in shows his hand in NLHE (because that's the way they do it online). As a matter of course, though, that's not a rule.

--Dave.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I think we get it.

If a player isn't turning over his cards, it's one of three things --

1. He forgot
2. He doesn't know any better
3. He's holding out on you.

The first two are benign and the problem will be corrected when you talk to them. In the third case, the player is being a bit of an ass and you may have to ask each and every time. Players will do what players will do. No matter what, getting pissed will probably throw off your own game in which case the ass wins.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

Like I said in the other post. Someone who is doing this is often betting very weak hands on the river or bluffing a lot and does not want to show. If you force him to show everytime it would discourage him from playing this way. Why would you want to do that?

Its more important to keep your opponents playing badly than it is to see his hand (which you know is crap anyway or he wouldn't be playing these games).

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually just tell the guy to show his cards.

What really annoys me is when I show my hand first and then my opponent holds his cards up and stares at them for 10-15 seconds while shaking his head and dreaming about what might have been before mucking.

That really slows down the game for no reason. You lost the hand, you don't need to grieve, just muck it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 30. I'm pretty sure you outdistance me by a couple of years. I for one am relishing the opportunity to do this at regular intervals. Even more when I'm old enough such that the rest of the table expects it just because of my AARP membership. You should too.


<shuffle>
<shuffle>
<scowl>
<muck>

[/ QUOTE ]

I do have a few years on you. I will grow old gracefully, but I don't plan on becoming one of those guys.

Its not just old people who do this, just people who like to chase long shots. This one guy I used to play stud with was great at this. He would always stare at his cards and complain that he could never complete a straight. The problem was the he picked up all these straight draws on 6th Street.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this case I was 99+% certain that he's required to show when he called an all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only in a tournament (to prevent chip dumping).

[ QUOTE ]
I just waited and when he tried to muck, I said to the dealer that I wanted to see his cards. Dealer showed the table (btw, it he was holding middle pair with an A kicker).

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the *right* to see his cards since they went to showdown. However, he is not required (or even expected) to show them in a cash game. The last agressor is normally expected to show first. If the caller can beat him, he shows, otherwise he's free to muck.

BTW, it's generally considered a dick move to ask the dealer to see someone's cards, *ESPECIALLY* when you just won the pot from them.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I hope ignorance is a partial excuse, it won't happen again

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I also dislike it when you are in the hand, and are the last caller.
The original better stalls, then the dealer says something like,
"OK people, let's see 'em"
or
"first one over wins."

The dealer should run the game. They should discourage stalling, and be direct to the original better-
"let's see them" or " you were called, what do you have".

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, it's generally considered a dick move to ask the dealer to see someone's cards, *ESPECIALLY* when you just won the pot from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that hold true even if the person showed his neighbor before mucking? It's hard to restrain myself -- Show one, show all violations are a big peeve of mine. Recently I was reminded that asking to see makes the opponent's hand live again, so I really should just forget about it and stack the pot.

And on a different already-mentioned topic, even though I trust the consensus here that insisting to look at the callers hand is only intended as an anti-collusion measure, I've yet to find anyone at a low-limit table that agrees with this (including dealers). Everyone and his brother asks to see calling hands with impunity. Presumably poker knowledge is better at the higher limits.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
And on a different already-mentioned topic, even though I trust the consensus here that insisting to look at the callers hand is only intended as an anti-collusion measure, I've yet to find anyone at a low-limit table that agrees with this (including dealers). Everyone and his brother asks to see calling hands with impunity. Presumably poker knowledge is better at the higher limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's one of my pet peeves. I think that if someone asks to see a hand, they should be required to explain why they think the player is cheating. And this requirement should be clearly stated in the room's rules. Anyone who asks to see a hand just to get a line on someone else's play should be firmly and publicly corrected.

-Mike

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I show immediately when we get to showdown whether I bet or called, just to get it over with and move on to the next hand. At low level games, I doubt people's ability to use the info they gain, and I feel like I can get by without the info they're withholding by not showing.

Getting the game moving and not being part of the slow-rolling douchebag movement is worth a considerable amount to me.

Martin

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

actually, you're the one slowing down the game. oncs they call their hand, turn yours up if you have them beat. that way, we can all play another one more quickly.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

He wants to "slowroll" you!

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just waited and when he tried to muck, I said to the dealer that I wanted to see his cards.



[/ QUOTE ]

are you fuking serious?

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

You are wrong, but I haven't read the rest of the post, so I might not be the first to tell you.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

I agree with a lot of the posters here that frequently insisting on this when you are or even aren't in the hand may not be so cool if it's a really weak game. Such a player has trash and doesn't want to be embarassed. Don't do things to discourage him from playing trash or badly.

On the other hand, when the dealer is not running the game properly or enforcing rules correctly you may want to quietly and politely mention something to him or the pit-boss/floor-man. They'll be happy to make sure the dealers are following the rules and keeping the game moving as quickly as possible.

just a thought...I have to do this thing somewhat regularly as the dealers (and even the pit) where I play are absolutely terrible and don't even know the rules.

-WT

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

If you are the caller, make the statement while you are putting your chips in that you are calling just to see the hand.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And on a different already-mentioned topic, even though I trust the consensus here that insisting to look at the callers hand is only intended as an anti-collusion measure, I've yet to find anyone at a low-limit table that agrees with this (including dealers). Everyone and his brother asks to see calling hands with impunity. Presumably poker knowledge is better at the higher limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's one of my pet peeves. I think that if someone asks to see a hand, they should be required to explain why they think the player is cheating. And this requirement should be clearly stated in the room's rules. Anyone who asks to see a hand just to get a line on someone else's play should be firmly and publicly corrected.

-Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, man.... just got back from Foxwoods, where (in addition to having an outrageously lucky day at everysingle one of the different low-limit/low-buyin poker games) I managed to get an entire 1-3 stud table ready to lynch me when I suggested that the man who asked to see my calling hand was implicitly accusing me of collusion whether he realized it or not. Don't ever, EVER try to explain the rationale for this rule to a low-limit table, especially not a stud table. Get up and leave if you must, but don't bother explaining it, because you'll only make enemies.

That said, I did get "Spike" (one of the veteran floors) to acknowledge that even though he didn't think collusion had anything to do with the rule, he wouldn't allow them to keep seeing hands several times in a day. So that's a bright spot, I guess.

Re: Players who don\'t show their cards on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a pet peeve.

I HATE it when people bet the river, and then slow down the game by saying stuff like, "Can you beat a queen?" Etc.

1) I don't like them slowing down the game.
2) When they bet and they're called I think I have "the right" to see it.

How do I discourage my opponents from doing this without alienating myself?

[/ QUOTE ]

I HATE THIS ALSO. However it does not bother me that much only because the players who do this usually stink.

There are times when heads up when I will call a river bet and show first. I do this against LAGs who do not like to be forced to show down bluffs or mediocre holdings like third pair. If it makes the guy feel better not to show, fine with me. So long as I take the pot.