KJo in the BB
 

I would like as many replies as possible to settle a dispute between myself and another small stakes player over a hand where we are holding K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the big blind.

Party .5/1

Preflop: Hero is BB with [K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]], [J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) [8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]], [K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]], [J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, CO calls, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) [6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

River: (18.25 BB) [2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 26.25 BB

-----------

This is a hand disputed by myself and another person, neither of us which were actually the Hero in this hand.

The two primary focuses are on the pre-flop play and the turn play.

Thoughts?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Did the hero have any reads on button or UTG+1? yh4674i2wjhszbvg

edit: nevermind, he should have 3-bet the turn, but preflop is not questionable. If button capped the turn I would probably check call the river.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

The poster of this hand states that he does not have enough hands on the villian yet.

So assume him to be the typical Party .5/1 player.

I think the turn is far from standard. What do you put the button on here?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

With those two stuck in the middle I am really tempted to 3-bet the turn, calling down if capped. Assuming button plays KJ, J8, K8, and 88 this way (4 combos, 6 combos, 6 combos, 3 combos), I would say you're ahead enough of the time.

EDIT: This is not a completely solid assumption, however, as 88 is effectively the nuts while the two-pair hands are not.

Oh wow. Disregard everything I wrote. I thought there was only one raiser the whole time.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Button wakes up on the turn with a raise after calling 3005 bets and hero bets into him on the river? That seems ill-advised to me.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Button wakes up on the turn with a raise after calling 3005 bets and hero bets into him on the river? That seems ill-advised to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I thought at first but with two callers there he has to have a set pretty damn often for us to not 3-bet (and he doesn't have 66/KK/JJ).

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button wakes up on the turn with a raise after calling 3005 bets and hero bets into him on the river? That seems ill-advised to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I thought at first but with two callers there he has to have a set pretty damn often for us to not 3-bet (and he doesn't have 66/KK/JJ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. 3bet and cry if he turns over 88.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I agree. It doesn't seem that the villian is donkey playing a set enough here to make a 3bet incorrect. I think it is a big or king or worse two pair more than enough to make the 3bet for value.

But I am open to hear any further argument on this..
the person with whom I was arguing this hand over is pretty resolute in his opinion on the matter.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

But I am open to hear any further argument on this..
the person with whom I was arguing this hand over is pretty resolute in his opinion on the matter.


I hope that's not directed at me.

I just asked a question, I never even offered an oppinion on the turn play.

This is an easy raise pre-flop though on a loose passive table.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]


But I am open to hear any further argument on this..
the person with whom I was arguing this hand over is pretty resolute in his opinion on the matter.


I hope that's not directed at me.

I just asked a question, I never even offered an oppinion on the turn play.

This is an easy raise pre-flop though on a loose passive table.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question you asked was "Anyway, the postflop action, do you really want to be three-betting top two on this turn with no reads? "

That is a very suggestive question.
I think three-betting the turn is a no-brainer.

And I think checking pre-flop in the BB is standard.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I am GRUNCHING.

Preflop: Don't raise here. Your equity edge is small, and you are in crappy position.

Flop: Fine.

Turn: 3bet the turn. If he caps then check-call the river. I don't think you can give him credit for 88 yet, and that's the only realistic hand that beats you. He could very well have K8 or J8. If he caps then check-call the river, because you're going to pay off his 88.

Who concurs?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am GRUNCHING.

Preflop: Don't raise here. Your equity edge is small, and you are in crappy position.

Flop: Fine.

Turn: 3bet the turn. If he caps then check-call the river. I don't think you can give him credit for 88 yet, and that's the only realistic hand that beats you. He could very well have K8 or J8. If he caps then check-call the river, because you're going to pay off his 88.

Who concurs?

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Preflop: Don't raise here. Your equity edge is small, and you are in crappy position.


I think the equity edge is larger than you realize against loose players.

Rasing is +EV. If you don't play well postflop it might lead you to make mistakes, but if you do you shouldn't give up the value of the raise here.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Smasharoo- Lots of players(including myself) don't raise KQo from the BB after this many limpers. So, why are you advising to raise with KJo? You are behind to any Aces and pairs, as well as lots of suited hands.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

That is a very suggestive question.

I guess. When you later accused me of claiming the button has Jacks, I pointed out that I never mentioned anything even vaguely simmilar.

Apparently that means I'm quite resolutely arguing something I neither said nor nessicarily even advocate.

Reading is fundemental.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Smasharoo- Lots of players(including myself) don't raise KQo from the BB after this many limpers.

I'm aware of that.

You should, however.

It's pretty hard to even think of a situation against average .50/1 where you *don't* have an equity advantage here. You don't need to be ahead. You just need to have enough equity that action from your raise is +EV.

You should be raising KQ, KJs, AJ, etc. here without thinking about it. If you can fade the increased variance, you should be raising KJ, too. Embracing every +EV situation regardless of how marginal is how you maximize earn.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I do raise KJs here, because it's soooted. I raise any two suited cards above 10, most of the time. But I do not raise AJo, KQo, and KJo if there are more than 3 limpers to me in the blinds.

I am open to a discussion on this, however.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]

Smasharoo- Lots of players(including myself) don't raise KQo from the BB after this many limpers.

I'm aware of that.

You should, however.

It's pretty hard to even think of a situation against average .50/1 where you *don't* have an equity advantage here. You don't need to be ahead. You just need to have enough equity that action from your raise is +EV.

You should be raising KQ, KJs, AJ, etc. here without thinking about it. If you can fade the increased variance, you should be raising KJ, too. Embracing every +EV situation regardless of how marginal is how you maximize earn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This assumes that KJo can be assigned +EV from this position in the first place. A line has to be drawn for the hands that are worthy of a bet in the BB.

With three limpers, a hand like KJ is vulnerable to domination.

It's a check.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

This assumes that KJo can be assigned +EV from this position in the first place. A line has to be drawn for the hands that are worthy of a bet in the BB.

With three limpers, a hand like KJ is vulnerable to domination.

Domination by what?

It's dominated by AJ, AK, KQ, JJ, KK, and AA.

Which one of those is limping in here?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I see your point smasharoo. But what I worry about is bloating the pot with an offsuit hand. People will have correct odds to call with gutshots on the flop almost definitely.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]

This assumes that KJo can be assigned +EV from this position in the first place. A line has to be drawn for the hands that are worthy of a bet in the BB.

With three limpers, a hand like KJ is vulnerable to domination.

Domination by what?

It's dominated by AJ, AK, KQ, JJ, KK, and AA.

Which one of those is limping in here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Less than 12 hours ago you were trying to tell me that "lots of people limp with JJ". Here I will quote exactly your words from the discussion on the other forum.

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, the postflop action, do you really want to be three-betting top two on this turn with no reads?

Lots of people limp with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what you said. And just now, on this forum, you ask me if JJ is limping here. Have you taken your medication?

Anyway, JJ isn't usually limping here. But at a loose passive table, KQ and AJ are.

I'm going to bed. You can stay up all night and try to convince people that KJ in the BB against three limpers has an equity edge.

But you will have to stop contradicting yourself first.

Goodnight

Re: KJo in the BB
 

But what I worry about is bloating the pot with an offsuit hand. People will have correct odds to call with gutshots on the flop almost definitely.


Same is true of AKo. You'd raise that here, no? The whole "I don't want to give people odds to draw" argument ignores the value you gain from the flop raise. Now, don't get me wrong. KJo isn't AKo in terms of EV and raising it in situations like this will increase your variance. I think it's clearly +EV though, particularly in a game where people regularly limp with K4.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Yes I raise AKo and AQo, because I think they are such great hands that being out of position and offsuit does not affect them as much as it does weaker hands like AJo, KQo, and KJo.

I do understand your point though, so starting tomorrow, I will start to experiment with raising AJo, KQo, and KJo from the blinds. I will still only complete and check ATo though. What do you think?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Raising this preflop sucks. You're bloating the pot preflop with KJ-high in the second worst position. Your equity edge is much smaller than you're suggesting, as well:

Against opponents who play 40%, 55%, and 60% of their hands preflop, KJo has 26.957% equity in the pot. If you're raising hands purely because of their equity, am I correct in assuming you're also raising 66 and A5s here, because they've also got about the same amount of equity (just so you know, AKo has 35% against this same range, so the difference between AKo and KJo is huge).

Preflop life is more than equity, and when your edge over the field is a whopping 2%, pushing your "edge" really ain't all that hot, especially when you consider the difficulties presented in your postflop play due to that little "push."

I said it before, I'll say it again: raising this preflop in this situation sucks.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's dominated by AJ, AK, KQ, JJ, KK, and AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

Also QQ. Domination is technically when a hand has 3 or fewer outs against another hand.

Rob

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Entity, so was my original reasoning correct?

[ QUOTE ]
But what I worry about is bloating the pot with an offsuit hand. People will have correct odds to call with gutshots on the flop almost definitely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do raise AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/KQs/KJs/QJs/QTs/JTs here, but I just complete check with AJo/KQo/KJo/ATo. Does this sound good?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Preflop life is more than equity, and when your edge over the field is a whopping 2%, pushing your "edge" really ain't all that hot, especially when you consider the difficulties presented in your postflop play due to that little "push."

Hence me qualifying it with "if you play well postflop".

It's clearly a lot easier to play than 66 or A5 postflop.

You're essentially saying that you wouldn't make a +EV play because...it's not easy?

I'm intrested in maximizing return not simplifying play.

You may have other priorites.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Entity, so was my original reasoning correct?

[ QUOTE ]
But what I worry about is bloating the pot with an offsuit hand. People will have correct odds to call with gutshots on the flop almost definitely.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

It's correct but incomplete. Your biggest considerations should be position, equity gain/loss, and pot bloat, probably in that order. There has been much debate over whether raising AQo in this situation is correct; I'm usually not raising AJo or KQo here, but it does depend on my reads of the limpers. I'm rarely, if ever, raising ATo or worse.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I added some:

[ QUOTE ]
I do raise AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/KQs/KJs/QJs/QTs/JTs here, but I just complete check with AJo/KQo/KJo/ATo. Does this sound good?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I understand from this is that AQo has a big enough equity advantage preflop to make raising correct, even though you are out of position and you will be bloating the pot. But I should still be inclined to raise suited cards above ten hjere like KTs, because they give me another way to win. Good?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop life is more than equity, and when your edge over the field is a whopping 2%, pushing your "edge" really ain't all that hot, especially when you consider the difficulties presented in your postflop play due to that little "push."

Hence me qualifying it with "if you play well postflop".

It's clearly a lot easier to play than 66 or A5 postflop.

You're essentially saying that you wouldn't make a +EV play because...it's not easy?

I'm intrested in maximizing return not simplifying play.

You may have other priorites.

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked you a simple question: are you raising A5s here? You said that your priority is equity gain, not simplifying play. A5s is virtually the same as KJo here (I ran the sims, both are around 26.8% equity against the limpers I mentioned).

Rob

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Oh while we're on the subject, I assume that your imaginary equity calculations include hands that we'd normally assume would be raised? AK/AA/ etc. etc.

Or do they take the fact that it's limped to you into account?

If they include hands that would normally be raised, clearly your equity is even higher that you indicate.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're essentially saying that you wouldn't make a +EV play because...it's not easy?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying I may not make a +EV play if it gives me a higher chance of making a much more +EV play later, and just as importantly, decreases my chances of making a -EV play later in the hand.

Rob

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I asked you a simple question: are you raising A5s here?

I asked you a simple one. Are you not making +EV plays pre-flop because it's too hard for you to deal with postflop?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh while we're on the subject, I assume that your imaginary equity calculations include hands that we'd normally assume would be raised? AK/AA/ etc. etc.

Or do they take the fact that it's limped to you into account?

If they include hands that would normally be raised, clearly your equity is even higher that you indicate.

[/ QUOTE ]

My equity calculations were being generous (as your average limpers are not 55-60% VPIP'ers) to compensate for the fact that I did not remove certain hands from the range. I can remove those hands if necessary and rerun the sims.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

I'm saying I may not make a +EV play if it gives me a higher chance of making a much more +EV play later, and just as importantly, decreases my chances of making a -EV play later in the hand.


Might be better to refine your postflop play so that you're not makig -EV plays because you raised when you were in a +EV situation pre-flop.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Now you are just being insulting to Entity.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

My equity calculations were being generous (as your average limpers are not 55-60% VPIP'ers) to compensate for the fact that I did not remove certain hands from the range. I can remove those hands if necessary and rerun the sims.


Or I could throw darts at a dartboard with various equity percentages on it for an equal level of accuraccy.

Including hands that crush KJ which are normally raised is disingenous at best.

If you don't raise it because you find it easier to play that way, just say so.

There's not a good objective argument for checking.

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Now you are just being insulting to Entity.

How am I being insulting?

If I told you I didn't raise AA because I felt that when i did I could never get away from it postflop wouldn't you tell me I'd be better off raising it and fixing my postflop play?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

Listen, I think what Entity is trying to say is that by avoiding bloating the pot with a preflop raise(even though the raise is +EV), he can better outplay his opponents after the flop, in a smaller pot(in terms of SB).

This, to me, is similar to Ed Miller's advocating waiting to raise certain hands until the turn, where the bet size doubles, and you can outplay your opponents on fourth street instead of pumping the flop.

You sacrifice a TINY bit of EV preflop in return for gaining MORE EV later on where you can demonstrate your better postflop skills. Just like waiting till the turn where the bet sizes double so you can give incorrect odds to crappy draws.

Am I close, Entity?

Re: KJo in the BB
 

P. 88, SSHE:

You often make an important trade off when you raise before the flop. When you have a pot equity edge, your raise has an immediate positive expectation because you will win more than your fair share. But that raise simultaneously cuts your postflop expectation.

I suspect this is what he means.