WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

***** Hand History for Game 2184230011 *****
NL Hold'em $1000 Buy-in + $65 Entry Fee Trny:12965495 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Friday, June 10, 03:36:31 EDT 2005
Table Step 5 #983602 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: tolumax ( $1005 )
Seat 3: RoJoSox ( $840 )
Seat 4: muckshmuck ( $1490 )
Seat 5: cleo_ ( $410 )
Seat 6: darvken ( $1495 )
Seat 7: Gigabet ( $2135 )
Seat 9: bresh ( $2080 )
Seat 10: Reuben123 ( $545 )
Trny:12965495 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
bresh folds.
Reuben123 folds.
tolumax calls [100].
RoJoSox folds.
muckshmuck calls [100].
cleo_ is all-In [410]
darvken folds.
Gigabet is all-In [2035]
tolumax is all-In [905]
muckshmuck folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 5d, Qd ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
** Dealing River ** [ 6s ]
Gigabet shows [ Qh, 3s ] two pairs, queens and threes.
tolumax shows [ Kc, Kh ] a pair of kings.
cleo_ shows [ Qc, Kd ] a pair of queens.
Gigabet wins 1130 chips from side pot #2 with two pairs, queens and threes.
Gigabet wins 1190 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, queens and threes.
Gigabet wins 1380 chips from the main pot with two pairs, queens and threes.
cleo_ finished in eighth place.
tolumax finished in seventh place.
tolumax has left the table.
cleo_ has left the table.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

Straight-up defense of the BB? No real danger of busting to anyone in the hand. Tolumax was a surprise caller and the flop was kind to Giga.

Just a noob (but listen to Freemoney's advice in the Beef thead Raptor....) Slacker

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

see when i read some hands like adanthars 77 and the comments people made and jcm when he posts 77 hand i feel like i see the game on a whole different level and then an obviously better player makes a play like this and i cant understand it for the life of me, i would love to hear the reasoning. mine is hes getting almost 2-1 open limper is weak tight and BB will only call with a hand like the one he picked up.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

Gig is test-playing a new luckbox. I think he can go ahead and buy it.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

isolation raise, getting ALMOST 3 to 1.. i mean i understand the reasoning behind it, but is it really worth it? to be at best a 60/40, ruin yer table image, and possibly run into a monster limper? apparently it is, but the whole risk/reward thing just seems to be a bit too high risk for a bit too little reward. i dont claim to be world class, but im not sure if i could fall in love with this play. actually, this is the kind of play i COULD fall in love with, but its gonna take a lot of foreplay to get me there. holla

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gig is test-playing a new luckbox. I think he can go ahead and buy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

geez, the one that hes gonna get is prolly more than my entire bankroll....and im just talking about the price for a weekend rental.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

risking 310 to win 710, i can see doing that with Q high.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
ruin yer table image

[/ QUOTE ]

everyone who sat at this table likely knows who he is, and how he plays.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

i misread the hand, i though there was only one limper and the KK was in the BB, ehh it makes me like it less, i dont know how many of the others are regulars but i dont think giga really has the tightest table image

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
risking 310 to win 710, i can see doing that with Q high.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, geez, think about it. its not like hes calling from the bb to a sb push. he is sliding his whole stack out there with limpers. gig says this is a level one, automatic play. well, its not going to be all that hard to pick up on his push Q high with 2 limper tendencies and maybe, i duno, limp with KK. im not knocking gig at all for this, as he knows what hes doing damn better than i, however, its not NEAR as clear cut as you try to make it sound eihli. holla

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

i know it's not clear cut, but how clear cut do you expect it to get without reads? all you can use is numbers.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

yer numbers dont help at ALL in this situation. they would help amazingly well if it was a heads up tournament. unfortunately, there are about 7 players at the table and 2 of them limped and still have action. therefore, you cant simply say that, oh, it costs 310 to win 740, autocall with Q high, ship it. ehot?

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

I dont know. That looks a lot scarier if that was your first time playing a STEP for $1000 and Gigabet made a raise like that from the blinds. If you arent an astute player, you have to put him on a hand....

Obviously Gigabet f*****d up by not having a correct read on the early position limper. But he makes these kind of moves to get the top end money and 1st place.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

i understand that. but, what else can we consider with the information provided? we don't know how likely it is that the limpers will call. we don't know how they view giga now or how this move will cause them to view and act against giga later. all we know is there is 710 in the pot and if he can get the limpers to fold he'll see a showdown heads up getting 710:310.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

Tolumax is far from a step 5 newcomer, and gigabet knows this. That said, I have no idea when it comes to the reasoning behind this play, unless tolumax routinely limp/folds off 1/10 of his stack, which I find pretty doubtful.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

The limp UTG+1 from the 1k stack at 50/100 really smells of AA/KK (absent some read of them being a total overlimper). The times you're up against one of those two hands, you're an 8:1 dog with 1k at risk. Seems like a very high price to pay for a small +cev opportunity (the times everyone else folds), unless you think the reckless/overplaying image will help make the others fear your big stack and fold blinds to you later, etc.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
The limp UTG+1 from the 1k stack at 50/100 really smells of AA/KK (absent some read of them being a total overlimper). The times you're up against one of those two hands, you're an 8:1 dog with 1k at risk. Seems like a very high price to pay for a small +cev opportunity (the times everyone else folds), unless you think the reckless/overplaying image will help make the others fear your big stack and fold blinds to you later, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

The image play aspect was the best reason I could come up with for doing this. Perhaps in the future it will allow him to make this move with real hands at that point. I don't know. As others have pointed out, it seems like with Giga's reputation this tendency is pretty highly exploitable.

I often think that in the future, when people post Gigabet related hand histories, they should consider doing so without revealing that the player in question is Giga. I think people spend so much time bending over backwards to find even the smallest of reasons that a play is good when they know it's him, and they might tear it to shreds otherwise.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]

I often think that in the future, when people post Gigabet related hand histories, they should consider doing so without revealing that the player in question is Giga. I think people spend so much time bending over backwards to find even the smallest of reasons that a play is good when they know it's him, and they might tear it to shreds otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. He is very creative and manages to win with the worse hand much more often than I do for sure. But of course he makes mistakes.

For example he has managed to go to the final table as chipleader in two straight live tournaments only to bust out very early. Of course it could just be down to bad luck but it could also be indicative of weaknesses in his play (wanting to do too much with big stack, taking hands too far when the actions of the other player should tell him not to etc). That he makes it to the final table as chipleader tells us what we already know. He is excellent working the bubble and exploiting hesitation in his opponents.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

I'm eager to see the range of play a known name player is willing to make. Of course, careful interpretation of the play is essential.

-John

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm eager to see the range of play a known name player is willing to make. Of course, careful interpretation of the play is essential.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plays like the one we're discussing here are impossible to interpret "carefully" with the information we have. We have no reads on the players, which is a vital component of plays like this. We can try and come up with the best possible scenario for making this play, which is not necessarily unproductive, but that doesn't really give a good indicator of whether the play was a good idea or not in this situation. Furthermore, considering the crew of regulars that he faces, it's very difficult to tell how good this play is in isolation anyway, since a large part of the play probably involves future exploitation of an image fueled by this play.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

ok, not so much careful specific interpretation, but rather careful consideration before randomly attempting to apply similar moves.

Consideration that might include math, player image, potential opponent tendencies, tournament level, ect...

One way or the other, it's nice to see the range of plays Giga is willing to make.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

I think Gigabet here (maybe?) is risking 310 chips to never have his blind stolen again.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Gigabet here (maybe?) is risking 310 chips to never have his blind stolen again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Yeah I don't claim to understand the weird things that go on, in higher level SNGs but I think they key here is the short stack. This is an ideal spot for Giga to risk almost nothing to, in the future, make a great play (that will hopefully lead to a 1st) with his image.

-LDT

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Gigabet here (maybe?) is risking 310 chips to never have his blind stolen again.

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't risking 310 chips.

Besides, most who he plays against are people who have seen him before. A play like this isn't going to make them totally change their game.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

alright, i don't have much to add to this thread except:

goddamn tolumax, do you EVER raise kk or aa?! i mean, i see this post less than 10 hours after sitting there at the table and having to listen to NUTZREALBIG berate him for always limping aces up front. this just simply can't be optimal. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i'm sure he limps other stuff too, i honestly haven't played that many hands with him, but egads.

citanul

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
alright, i don't have much to add to this thread except:

goddamn tolumax, do you EVER raise kk or aa?! i mean, i see this post less than 10 hours after sitting there at the table and having to listen to NUTZREALBIG berate him for always limping aces up front. this just simply can't be optimal. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i'm sure he limps other stuff too, i honestly haven't played that many hands with him, but egads.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

If the other players are on autopilot and routinely pushes on limps in level 4+, surely it must be +EV.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

Man I wish I was playing in these games so I could limp behind with 55 in the CO.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the other players are on autopilot and routinely pushes on limps in level 4+, surely it must be +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

if only my life were such that i could just go jumping into $1k buyin games and going on "autopilot" knowing that it's likely a losing proposition.

citanul

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

I'm not totally sure I like/understand this move either. I can though see the point about it possibly giving him some walks on his blinds later on. One other thing that hasn't been mentioned which may be relevant though: in terms of CEV it's marginal, but maybe for him the $EV is much greater. Assuming limpers fold, if he loses to the short stack he is still healthy with T1725. If he wins he is up to T2545, now more comfortably chip leader going into level 5. He may feel this small chip difference represents a big equity difference due to an increased ability to bully and steal.

Yesterday for instance I won one hand which moved me into a very small chip lead. This allowed me to push on the 2nd stacks BB in the following hand (we were on the bubble with one very short stack), and from there I was in a position from which I was able to allin-steal my way up to 8500 chips. Sure this was in a $50+5 and is a much more extreme situation, but it just demonstrates how sometimes a small chip difference can be worth a huge amount to your actual tournament equity.

I don't know if this was part of his thinking - just throwing it out there.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

Given the stacksize of UTG and his style, his limp pretty much makes me give up the hand. Against a known big hand EP limper there is a big chance he is looking for a showdown, and i'm not doubling him up with a gay waiter!

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

Come on guys, you all need to accept the fact that very good players make very bad plays sometimes. Gigabet made a bad read and even if his read were correct he would still have to beat a better hand with Q-3o. He is a big dog 70-30 to any pocket pair above 22 and also a big dog to any hand with a Q in it. against A or K high type hands his advantage is very slight to nothing. If your looking to justify a play here look at the play toulamax made. Toulamax’s read was spot on that limping with KK would get action from an over aggressive big stack.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I often think that in the future, when people post Gigabet related hand histories, they should consider doing so without revealing that the player in question is Giga. I think people spend so much time bending over backwards to find even the smallest of reasons that a play is good when they know it's him, and they might tear it to shreds otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. He is very creative and manages to win with the worse hand much more often than I do for sure. But of course he makes mistakes.

For example he has managed to go to the final table as chipleader in two straight live tournaments only to bust out very early. Of course it could just be down to bad luck but it could also be indicative of weaknesses in his play (wanting to do too much with big stack, taking hands too far when the actions of the other player should tell him not to etc). That he makes it to the final table as chipleader tells us what we already know. He is excellent working the bubble and exploiting hesitation in his opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as busting out "very early", 3rd is not "very early", and 7th isn't really either.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Come on guys, you all need to accept the fact that very good players make very bad plays sometimes. Gigabet made a bad read and even if his read were correct he would still have to beat a better hand with Q-3o. He is a big dog 70-30 to any pocket pair above 22 and also a big dog to any hand with a Q in it. against A or K high type hands his advantage is very slight to nothing. If your looking to justify a play here look at the play toulamax made. Toulamax’s read was spot on that limping with KK would get action from an over aggressive big stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading in further, I think there is a very real chance that Gig KNEW Tolumax might be big, but was hoping maybe AK, because he DOES make spite plays all the time. Good for his "Don't F with me" image.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

I was watching this one, and did not understand it either. My thoughts are that Giga is an extreme luckbox and knew he would suck out on his opponents, just like he did on the bubble to Rojosox.

5 handed blinds like 100-200, or something, and Rojosox, who had played like 1 hand, pushes Giga's BB from the SB. Rojo has about 850 chips, and Giga insta calls with 4-2 off. Rojo flips over AQ, and Giga proceeds to spike a 4.

I do not think it was a bad call, he had the chips to make the call, like 5K, but man is he a luckbox. And again he is sending a clear message that he will call any attempt at stealing his blinds.

Raptor, I went to bed after Rojosox got knocked out, did Gigbet end up winning this?

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I often think that in the future, when people post Gigabet related hand histories, they should consider doing so without revealing that the player in question is Giga. I think people spend so much time bending over backwards to find even the smallest of reasons that a play is good when they know it's him, and they might tear it to shreds otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. He is very creative and manages to win with the worse hand much more often than I do for sure. But of course he makes mistakes.

For example he has managed to go to the final table as chipleader in two straight live tournaments only to bust out very early. Of course it could just be down to bad luck but it could also be indicative of weaknesses in his play (wanting to do too much with big stack, taking hands too far when the actions of the other player should tell him not to etc). That he makes it to the final table as chipleader tells us what we already know. He is excellent working the bubble and exploiting hesitation in his opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as busting out "very early", 3rd is not "very early", and 7th isn't really either.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 3rd is ok, but 7th out of 8 when you go in as chipleader is definately very early.

Anyway, this discussion is useless since some people feel he makes a great play no matter how much a dog he ends up as or how much his read is off.

Read what NUTZREALBIG said about this specific player and his limps. It is possible that Gigabet didn't know this about this player. Then it is just a result of not enough hands against this guy. If he did know this player limps with monsters with less than 10xBB this play is downright poor.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

I dunno...this whole play is extremely read dependant on tolumax. I have no knowledge of this player (and not sure many others do) so....meh.

Also, I bet Giga doesn't mind losing the 1k chips as much as most people might think if it is one of the (hopefully rare times) tolumax is limping a monster....obviously Giga can't make this play if tolumax only limps monsters on level 4 here.

Also, he almost surely had a feeling that he'd pair up both of his cards on this hand. He's omniscient you know, [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Yugoslav

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was watching this one, and did not understand it either. My thoughts are that Giga is an extreme luckbox and knew he would suck out on his opponents, just like he did on the bubble to Rojosox.

5 handed blinds like 100-200, or something, and Rojosox, who had played like 1 hand, pushes Giga's BB from the SB. Rojo has about 850 chips, and Giga insta calls with 4-2 off. Rojo flips over AQ, and Giga proceeds to spike a 4.

I do not think it was a bad call, he had the chips to make the call, like 5K, but man is he a luckbox. And again he is sending a clear message that he will call any attempt at stealing his blinds.

Raptor, I went to bed after Rojosox got knocked out, did Gigbet end up winning this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ugh, you clearly didnt catch the action as it happened, because Gigabet pushed from the button with 2-4o and rojo called on the bb with A9o and giga hit a 4.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

alcohol

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

I had 4 other tables going, I will look at the HH again, but do not think he pushed from the button, because ROJOSOX had two players between him and GIGA. A9 could be right, and he definitely hit his 4.

Re: WHAT THE F*** explain this one..????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had 4 other tables going, I will look at the HH again, but do not think he pushed from the button, because ROJOSOX had two players between him and GIGA. A9 could be right, and he definitely hit his 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

gig pushed from the button, rojosox autocalled from the bb with A9o. thats how it played out. holla