Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

Hi all, I hope to get some feedback on this hand. I have been reading the forum for some time, but just decided to participate. As I figure you're not looking for a bio here, I'll get to the point now.

I figured UTG+1 had a fairly wide range of raising hands, but had too little info to go by to judge his capping standards. I'd think AA-TT, AKo, AKs-AQs but that's just a guess.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

He caps pf &amp; leads flop. ok maybe I should raise him here to find out, but I felt he was tricky enough that I couldn't gain reliable info by raising. I wan't him to bluff me all the way if I'm ahead.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

Seems like a straightforward application of WA/WB. I like it.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

This is fine.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

I think your line in this hand is fine. You're either way ahead or way behind, there's good reason to worry about being way behind, and, if you raise the flop or turn, Villain will probably slow down with hands you're beating anyway.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

Would a raise on the flop be considered incorrect? If so, why?

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would a raise on the flop be considered incorrect? If so, why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop is bad, because one of two things will happen:

Case 1: You currently have villain beat. In this case, he is likely drawing to very few outs (think of a hand like 99, for example), and he will either fold immediately or fold to your turn bet if you raise the flop. In this case, you've failed to extract the maximum from your opponent when you are way ahead.

Case 2: He currently has you beaten (think QJ). In this case, you are the one drawing to very few outs, and villain knows it. If you raise the flop, you will get 3-bet and lead into on the turn and river. In this case, your flop raise is just spewing when you are way behind.

In these sorts of cases, the standard line is either to just call all the way down as long as villain keeps leading, with the possibility of raising the river if the board is to your liking. This gets the maximum when you're ahead while losing the least when you're behind.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

This may sound corny, but it depends on how the night is going for me. Have you ever had one of those nights that you just run really cold or really hot? If I'm having an off night, I play it the same way. If I'm having a good night, I raise the flop to see his reaction. A 3-bet from him and I play the turn and river the same.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

I think I would raise the turn. I'm not happy if he 3-bets but I think you have the best hand here more often than not and I want to get money in the pot. You can probably only put villain on 3 hands that beat you, and AQs isnt that great of a hand to cap with out of position. It's entirely possible that he has AA, but he would be leading out wtih JJ and 1010 as well here and he would continue to do so if you showed no strength post flop. I think your line is decent, but I think I would raise the turn here.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm having a good night, I raise the flop to see his reaction. A 3-bet from him and I play the turn and river the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if villain's reaction is to fold to your flop raise? Will you happy withe your results on this hand?

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

Thanx. Your argument will definately change the way I play a hand like that.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would a raise on the flop be considered incorrect? If so, why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising this flop would result in one of 2 scenarios:

1.) If the villian has just ace high or a worse hand (like jacks) than you they will likely check/fold the turn.

2.) If the villian has you beaten or destroyed (AA/any queen) you will either be 3-bet on the flop or check/raised on the turn.

You would like to show this hand down as there is a very good chance you are ahead.

Since a raise would cause a hand you are ahead of to slow down you win less when you are ahead.

Since you don't really know which it is (and often times you won't heads up as some players are very aggressive with hands which you beat) you'd prefer to win the maximum possible and lose the least possible.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This may sound corny, but it depends on how the night is going for me. Have you ever had one of those nights that you just run really cold or really hot? If I'm having an off night, I play it the same way. If I'm having a good night, I raise the flop to see his reaction. A 3-bet from him and I play the turn and river the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really should try not to alter your play when you are having a good/bad night. This will often cause you to lose more when you are having a bad night or win less when you're having a good night. In this case it looks like you play this hand better on your off nights [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

I would raise the flop. If re-raised I would call down. Folding to a re-raise is probably the smart move, but I have been seeing so many psychos lately at Empire .5/1 that I don't think I could let it go to one opponent.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

I like your line of play and think that you chose an excellent hand for your first post.

Your hand seems to provide a very clear example of the best way to approach a WA/WB situation.

Welcome to the forums and I look forward to reading your further posts. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

Ah. I see the light.

quote from a previous post:
In these sorts of cases, the standard line is either to just call all the way down as long as villain keeps leading, with the possibility of raising the river if the board is to your liking.
_________________________

Curious, is there any card other than a K that would cause you to want to raise the river?

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah. I see the light.

quote from a previous post:
In these sorts of cases, the standard line is either to just call all the way down as long as villain keeps leading, with the possibility of raising the river if the board is to your liking.
_________________________

Curious, is there any card other than a K that would cause you to want to raise the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

A 3rd Queen.

KO

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

If I knew the opponent were a LAG or if I had seen him keep firing away with an unimproved AK before, I would probably raise the river on this actual hand.

If UTG+1 had simply limped/called PF, I would raise the river practically every time against an unknown.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a straightforward application of WA/WB. I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this WA/WB that you speak of? I've seen it used in a couple threads but still haven't figured out what style it is representing.

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

WA/WB stands for Way Ahead or Way Behind

It seems to refer to when both you or your opponent have few outs to improve your hand in a heads up situation, and you dont know who is currently ahead.

The standard line is to check/call to showdown so that you lose the least when you are behind and win the most when you are ahead.

Here is a link to a good thread which discusses WA/WB thoroughly:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=1#Post2206499

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

Great, thanks!

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

ok, thanks everyone for the great responses. I'm glad that my play seems to have some merit. Sometimes aggression is not the key I guess.

Villain had 77 in this one and I took it down.
As someone mentioned if I had known that he was capable of playing medium PP like this, a raise on the river would make sense. just not an Ace right?

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain had 77 in this one and I took it down.
As someone mentioned if I had known that he was capable of playing medium PP like this, a raise on the river would make sense. just not an Ace right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I read the post, and started reading the replies, and really disagreed with most of it. I figured villian had something like 77.

Yes, you are way ahead or way behind, but with the donks that play .5/1, I think you are way ahead a huge preponderance of the time.

You are way ahead when villian has AK, AJ, AT, KJ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, ..., A3, and so many more things people will raise and cap pre-flop, and bet the flop with. You are just behind to AA and any Q.

I'd raise and cap the flop. I'd bet or raise the turn. Usually in this case, the villian slows down at some point on the turn and river. As long as an Ace doesn't come on board, I will usually play this strongly all the way. If I lose to AA or QJ, I say "nh" in the chat box and go on to the next hand.

-Tom

Re: Call, call, call... Can this be right?
 

jively, yes people act strange at times. But this guy was pretty much an unknown. Do you autorate all players as maniacs?
There's also different kinds of maniacs, some are aggressive all the way with nothing, others are just preflop-maniacs.

I wouldn't mind playing this as strongly as you suggest against a confirmed loon, otherwise I'm not so sure.