5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

A hand came up at the Wynn I'd like to get some votes and opinions on.

The game is 5-10 NL, and you have ~$1300 in front of you. The game has been pretty standard mix of loose/decent play preflop, bet/takedown flop, and is 8 handed at the moment. The player 2 to your right opens in mid position for $40. You smooth call to try to trap with QQ. Folded around to the BB, who raises it to $120 after about 20 seconds of deliberation. Mid position opener thinks for about a minute before calling, and you decide to raise it an additional $400. The BB, a younger looking player who has yet to show down a hand, has been playing for about an hour, has been talking genially with others at the table, and seems to have at least a decent idea of how to play, looks a bit concerned, but after about 30 seconds, decides to go all in for 610 more on top of your $520 total in. The MP player folds quickly, and it is up to you. The pot now has $1775 in it, and it is $610 to call. What do you do, and what is your thought process?

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

i think you should prob call getting 3:1 if there is any this guy will go allin with AK, and alot of ppl will... its a metagame disaster to fold here and you are only 4:1 dog against AA/KK... your orignal raise to 560 or whatever is quite bad... you will almost never get action from hands you beat if you are not playing with complete retards. calling is ok... against many players folding is the best.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

Its too bad that MP didn't call so you could say "ok, you kids play yer silly games with AA vs KK"

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

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Its too bad that MP didn't call so you could say "ok, you kids play yer silly games with AA vs KK"

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Touche'

Although, they weren't miniraises.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

to him your hand looks like possible aces, but he can't fold his kings anyway and decides to go ahead and get it in there hoping you have AKs or QQ.

the question is whether or not you go ahead and call here getting 3:1 when a 4:1 dog probably 90% of the time. it does look pretty bad for metagame if you plan on sticking around longer.

i would probably say F it and call. then when the kid asks you "Aces?" you can tell him 'yes' to crush his spirit before telling him his hand is good to make his night.

i also hope MP opener wasn't holding both of my outs.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

i'm just wondering, why did you reraise? you must have had some sort of read on him or some instinct that convinced you that this was an optimal play...
but in answer to your question, am i the only one who prefers folding? i feel like you're undoubtedly beat, which means you dont have the odds...how does it help his image to call here?

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

why did this hand not make it to a flop?

fim

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

This hand makes me want to vomit. What are you trying to accomplish with your reraise. Worse hands fold, better hands call. Right? On the river I'd have to be getting damn close to 5.5:1 to call, and you arent anywhere close. Congrats on putting in 1/4 of your stack and not seeing a flop. Get a better plan next time (call/call works fine here)

-Jason

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

Off the top of my head BB would have to have AK 30% of the time to make this worth calling.

Its pretty hard to believe he has AK that much here, since you think hes not a donkey.

It looks like you're losing about $100 if you call, but its probably worth it to get labelled as an action player who completely overplayed his hand.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

Way to trap yourself.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

Well, well, well, interesting thread, with more than a few interesting responses. I'm very surprised that the call ratio was so high, considering to me it's almost impossible to be versus more obvious AA or KK. I also personally think a reraise is ok, but should have been only another 200-250 more, so folding can be done more judiciously. Also, as I had planned, everyone assumed the QQ holder was me. It wasn't. I was the player in the BB, and I had AA, which of course, got cracked. It seemed ludicrous to me that QQ could call there, as I was positive that he HAD to have KK that he couldn't get away from. From the responses here, I guess alot of people once in the situation of getting almost 3-1 on a call allin with QQ will call once they get tht far, but most wouldn't get there that way. Personally, I'd have reraised original raiser to about 100-120, gotten reraised to 300 or so i'd say, then have a VERY hard decision from there. Once the flop came rags, him making a 2/3rds+ bet would NOT rule out a fold for me on the flop, but I'd be working pretty hard off a read.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

trust me, a reraise is not ok. stop trying to convince yourself.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

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trust me, a reraise is not ok. stop trying to convince yourself.

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Are you saying the reraise under the original scenario is not ok, or under any circumstances is not OK with QQ? And I don't remember "trying to convince myself", as I'm not the one who made the reraise in the first place.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

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Are you saying the reraise under the original scenario is not ok, or under any circumstances is not OK with QQ?

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In general, it's a very marginal play to 3-bet w/ QQ given your stack-sizes w/out special circumstances (reads, game situation, etc.) This is far from an auto-reraise and cold calling queens is more of a deception / pot control play preflop - inducing mistakes later in the hand when they really can't make any more mistakes preflop.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying the reraise under the original scenario is not ok, or under any circumstances is not OK with QQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, it's a very marginal play to 3-bet w/ QQ given your stack-sizes w/out special circumstances (reads, game situation, etc.) This is far from an auto-reraise and cold calling queens is more of a deception / pot control play preflop - inducing mistakes later in the hand when they really can't make any more mistakes preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I do think that just saying out-of-hand that QQ reraising is bad is incorrect, as in proper situations, it can save you alot of $$$. Course, it can cost you alot of $$$ at times too, but there are few perfect NL plays.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

I dont like the reraiase or the call by QQ. I think you played the AA hand perfectly and got sucked out.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

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I dont like the reraiase or the call by QQ. I think you played the AA hand perfectly and got sucked out.

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Yeah, my only concern upon reflection is whether my initial raise was too small. Was wondering what might have happened if i'd offered him 10% of the pot once that flop hit too? Does that ever happen? Basically, I WANTED THAT DAMN POT!

Bah.

Simple fact is, he did exactly what I wanted him to, and it didn;t work out, so I live with the results. I get paid to make good decisions, not win pots.

Now to just convince myself of that...

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

I'm very surprised that the call ratio was so high, considering to me it's almost impossible to be versus more obvious AA or KK.

Me too. I was shocked when I hit "submit" and there were more calls than folds. I can't imagine a more obvious AA or KK. He's either on AA "thinking about whether or not he wants to play the hand", or he's on KK legitimately thinking about whether he wants to take the chance he's against AA.

Unless you were making stupid massive bets with ridiculous hands, calling with QQ there is unambiguously terrible.

- C -

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

Boy-oh-boy did that coldcall-reraise suck. So did the call when you went all-in. I think a lot of people in this thread are WAY overvaluing their "metagame" considerations. You're a 4:1 dog an easy 90% of the time in this situation; let the hand go and move on.

Tough break on your Aces.

SpaceAce

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

im not saying the QQ guy did anything but play the hand terribly.

but if one is going to play badly enough to make that re-raise in the first place. then they are surely going to be bad enough to call the push.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

sounds like a great game.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

p.s.

this is nothing more than a thinly veiled bad beat story. it is clear the QQ played horribly. your opponent sucked out on you, deal with it. cry elsewhere.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

Although I voted "fold" I'm probably more in this camp. I would have folded to the raise. When you make the $400 re-raise you have clearly (IMHO) put the BB in the position (considering his stack size) of fold or push. Since you anticipated this when you raised you got exactly what you saw coming and might as well call. If you wanted all your money in the center why not push instead of raising $400?

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

i clicked fold, i must be retarded? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

To me, I'm almost certain BB has KK ... the hesitation, the all-in - it seems as if he can't lay his hand down, yet thinks he's up against AA (but desperately hopes it's AK or the random QQ).

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get paid to make good decisions, not win pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love that quote and will try and remember and incorporate that into my play. You can control the decisions, not the cards.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

Your initial call of MP's raise to $40 in OK. But it is not to "trap" like you say, when an A or K flops about 35% of the time who exactly did you trap?

When the BB makes it $120 to go, you're clearly getting odds to call and hit your set assuming BB to have at least 100BBs, but yet you opt to reopen the betting and put close to 1/2 your chips in the middle with QQ. Awful.

Call the $120. Default play is to fold any flop without a Q when the BB bets 3/4 pot or full pot.

Given the way you played it, you might as well call with the odds you're getting on your money. You're behind right now most likely, but if you're gonna put 1/2 stack with queens, might as well dance for the whole thing.

Peace out.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

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Also, as I had planned, everyone assumed the QQ holder was me. It wasn't. I was the player in the BB, and I had AA, which of course, got cracked.

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Uh, so what the hell was the point of this post?

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

[ QUOTE ]
p.s.

this is nothing more than a thinly veiled bad beat story. it is clear the QQ played horribly. your opponent sucked out on you, deal with it. cry elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no, it's not. I was just trying to see if others make this bad a call on the end, and it seems plenty do. It obviously makes for intersting discussion, and this IS a discussion board. Considering your " I would probably say F it and call" response, I'd say you could learn something from it, but it's a pretty odd response from someone who one sentence earlier said youre likely a 4-1 90% or so of the time here. I'm hoping this isn't just yet another axe coming out.

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i clicked fold, i must be retarded? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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No, you must be sane.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Also, as I had planned, everyone assumed the QQ holder was me. It wasn't. I was the player in the BB, and I had AA, which of course, got cracked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, so what the hell was the point of this post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading comprehension is obviously not a skill you posess. Put the axe away, and pay attention. You might learn something.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I get paid to make good decisions, not win pots.

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I love that quote and will try and remember and incorporate that into my play. You can control the decisions, not the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alas, I'm nowhere NEAR the originator of it, but I'm glad I could bring it to your attention. Actually buying into it fully is the hard part, which brings me one my favorite poker quotes, from Jesse May's Shut Up and Deal (not verbatim);

Mastering the skill is easy. It's mastering the luck that is hard.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your initial call of MP's raise to $40 in OK. But it is not to "trap" like you say, when an A or K flops about 35% of the time who exactly did you trap?

When the BB makes it $120 to go, you're clearly getting odds to call and hit your set assuming BB to have at least 100BBs, but yet you opt to reopen the betting and put close to 1/2 your chips in the middle with QQ. Awful.

Call the $120. Default play is to fold any flop without a Q when the BB bets 3/4 pot or full pot.

Given the way you played it, you might as well call with the odds you're getting on your money. You're behind right now most likely, but if you're gonna put 1/2 stack with queens, might as well dance for the whole thing.

Peace out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some good analysis in here, although I don't fully agree with all of it.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

What hand range can you put the reraiser on? If he hasn't shown down a hand, how confident are you that JJ, TT and AK are in his range? I fold and take a walk for playing QQ that way.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

alot of good players will reraise with ace king or even alot less when they suspect players will be laying down big pairs when getting 3 to one. thats the better play. if you guys are getting that much in and dumping to an all in that easy you arent going to win in bigger games or against better players.
and with the QQ raise you do want everyone to fold, thats why you would make it in the firest place and knowing that only better hands or better players may come for it. then you need to sort out which it is if you get played with.

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

but to clarify in this hand i would never have raised back. and called only to try to hit a set or get an indication that i could win the pot after the flop

Re: 5-10 NL Hand at the Wynn
 

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Way to trap yourself.

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nh [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]