AA small blind
 

Last hand, table loose as a goose. i had AA in small blind against 6 limpers and BB. I wasn't sure what to do. Here is what i considered:

-limping and c/r any flop
-raising and betting flop
-raising and c/r flop, since with 6 limpers surely someone will bet

i raised and bet the flop. i think it was stupid, since the pot was large enough that anyone with any sort of anything could justify calling the one small bet. no one raised PF and i didnt really expect anyone to raise my bet (although i hoped they would). Obviously i lost to runner-runner 2 pair because the pot was huge and no one was going anywhere.

so

what's a better way to play something like this to protect my good starting but unlikely to improve hand?

Re: AA small blind
 

Nothing you can really do about that...it happens sometimes, IIRC AA PF is only supposed to win around 25-30% of the time against that many people.

Re: AA small blind
 

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Nothing you can really do about that...it happens sometimes, IIRC AA PF is only supposed to win around 25-30% of the time against that many people.

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I know, but im curious how others would play in that situation- what their PF and Flop lines are to protect and dominate.

Re: AA small blind
 

bet and raise relentlessly both preflop and flop. slow down when it starts looking bad. fold sometimes.

Re: AA small blind
 

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bet and raise relentlessly both preflop and flop. slow down when it starts looking bad. fold sometimes.

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really? that seems stupid, doesnt it? from the SB?

Re: AA small blind
 

Raising and betting is the only option. Completing is giving up way, way, WAY too much value. You should be drooling about having 6 limpers, not sweating. Sometimes, you can't protect your hand. In those cases, bet for value.

I was playing some 1/2 over at Pacific a while ago. The players there are as bad as the software, maybe worse. I raised AA UTG and watched 6 people cold call. I just about creamed my pants. I lost the hand, but, man, do I ever have a stash of Sklansky bucks.

Re: AA small blind
 

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bet and raise relentlessly both preflop and flop. slow down when it starts looking bad. fold sometimes.

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really? that seems stupid, doesnt it? from the SB?

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what, specifially, seems stupid.

your question was very general. I tried to give what I think is generally good advice with AA -- betting and raising when you generally have a huge equity edge.

Sorry if that seems stupid.

Re: AA small blind
 

About the only frop I'd fold with AA is JT9, all hearts, and I have black aces. I bet the flop, and it's 3bets back to me. Then I might fold.

Raising preflop relentlessly is never a mistake from any position. Conditions have to be absolutely perfect if you're going to try for a LRR rather than raising straight up.

Re: AA small blind
 

ya, you're right it's being results oriented and all. but betting doesn't protect my hand at all- i need to go for a c/r. if i raise pf i dunno if anyone will bet- although if i check i bet they will. so maybe a raise pf and a c/r flop is betting than just betting out the flop.

Re: AA small blind
 

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About the only frop I'd fold with AA is JT9, all hearts, and I have black aces. I bet the flop, and it's 3bets back to me. Then I might fold.

Raising preflop relentlessly is never a mistake from any position. Conditions have to be absolutely perfect if you're going to try for a LRR rather than raising straight up.

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what about the flop play though, that is the biggest concern for me. if i just bet into 6 people with a large pot all backdoors, bottom pair, etc is going to call. if i try to check/raise a late position bettor that's my only chance to protect my unimprovable hand in a large field with a larger pot. thats what im getting at.

Re: AA small blind
 

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bet and raise relentlessly both preflop and flop. slow down when it starts looking bad. fold sometimes.

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really? that seems stupid, doesnt it? from the SB?

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think of it this way bro

no matter what there's not a lot you can do to "protect" your hand. It's pretty tough to pull off a check raise after raising preflop and having no idea where the bet is coming from. If the bet comes from your left all you can do now is build the pot. as someone else already pointed out you're not the favorite here -- at least you're not winning 50% of the time.

say you're only winning 30% of the time against 8 players (this will totally depend on the flop -- the nightmare JT9s that someone pointed out you're probably hella worse). In some respects it's the same position you're in with a nut flush draw on the flop - you're 2:1 to win the hand so against a bunch of players you want to ram and jam with this huge equity edge, so you bet out to get as much in the pot as possible. One signicant difference is with a nut flush draw you have high implied odds, which means you will be betting and raising liberally on the turn/river if you hit your draw and never paying off with a second best hand. your AA on the other hand has reverse implied odds; even when you have the best hand on the turn/river, you often cannot bet and raise for fear of being beat by straights, flushes, two pair, etc, and you will often make the second best hand. This is another big argument for betting and raising ASAP when you know you're best.

forget about protection. with the best dream c/r possible the button bets you raise and face the field with 19:2 which means the BB on your left can call for a gutshot! before you know it the tag in the CO is calling with ducks what are you protecting against????

bet and raise for value until it starts looking bad, it's maybe as stupid as it sounds

edit: yankees totally suck

Re: AA small blind
 

I am playing at pacific and its still the exact same [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: AA small blind
 

You don't need to protect every hand. Sometimes you can't. The first and foremost reason you are betting or raising should be value. If you think you have an equity edge, exploit it. Even if someone has odds to draw to a gutshot, trips, two pair, etc., they are still (usually, i.e., without an extrordinary number of players in the hand) paying you money to draw. Would you rather have it checked around and give them a free card? Then they have paid you no money, and they still get to draw. If circumstances are right (good relative position to another preflop aggressor), sometimes you can raise or check/raise for protection as well. If you're the only preflop aggressor, you can't count on this.

Sometimes it is correct to give up a very slight amount of value to exploit a larger edge later. These instances are the exception, not the rule. AA in the SB is not one of those situations. Preflop, you can only have a huge edge. Doing anything other than raising preflop and leading the flop is giving up a helluva lot of value, not just a slight edge.

Re: AA small blind
 

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Obviously i lost to runner-runner 2 pair because the pot was huge and no one was going anywhere.


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If the table is as you described, runner runner is gonna catch you more times than not no matter what you do. But, you are catching a HUGE pot those times when you actually win. Raise the hell out of it until you know you are beat, then call down anyway, just in case.

I know you took a minor bad beat here, and are looking for a magical remedy from people catching runner runner. There is no remedy, just take your share of the pots and concede when you must. The AA in SB with 6 limpers you describe, it is virtually impossible to misplay this hand without winning big money in the long run. Might as well raise it and get as much as you can out of it.

Re: AA small blind
 

Mr. Wookie, w [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]hat does LRR mean? I looked in the Abbreviations but did not see it.
Thanks.

Re: AA small blind
 

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bet and raise relentlessly both preflop and flop. slow down when it starts looking bad. fold sometimes.

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, CO calls.

Re: AA small blind
 

limp re-raise. usually done with AA/KK UTG at an aggressive table when almost avery hand is being raised.

Re: AA small blind
 

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bet and raise relentlessly both preflop and flop. slow down when it starts looking bad. fold sometimes.

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Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, CO calls.

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wow, no way in hell I fold there. 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] maybe

Re: AA small blind
 

I didnt provide reads and I rarely fold AA. But this was a good fold based on the board texture and opponents in the hand. CO was weak-tight (.4 AF after 50 hands, 17% VPIP) and UTG has decent hand selection but low AF. And I've only shown down very very good hands (AA,AQ, AT was about the worst ive shown at this table).

Re: AA small blind
 

I'd agree

you're getting 5.5:1, probably chasing for a board pair, an A, or your BDFD. There might even be a chance that someone is getting frisky with someting like AT or QQ (thinking he was being crafty pf). If it was capped coming back (need another player obviously)I'd lay it down because you're definitely drawing slim to none. It looks like there are outs here though

Re: AA small blind
 

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I'd agree

you're getting 5.5:1, probably chasing for a board pair, an A, or your BDFD. There might even be a chance that someone is getting frisky with someting like AT or QQ (thinking he was being crafty pf). If it was capped coming back (need another player obviously)I'd lay it down because you're definitely drawing slim to none. It looks like there are outs here though

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i count more like 7.5:1, better when CO calls the 3bet. obviously worse if the CO caps but there's no reason really to think that he will cap after his position raise, a scary check raise from utg and our gangsta call of two bets. anyways I'd definitely want to make sure the turn wasn't a club or an ace before I folded this sucker.

Re: AA small blind
 

word- my bad, I only counted the raiser and reraiser as 1 sb each... its easier when it's sitting in front of you on party lol

Re: AA small blind
 

Just curious what cards you guys put two low AF players on on this flop. CO has never raised TPTK (had AQ once and hit TP on rainbow board and called to the river), has never pumped a draw and clearly shows no knowledge of pot equity over 50+ hands (small sample, but ive seen enough of his cards where this is painfully obvious) and UTG limper who has shown a sensitivity to position in his hand selection but little agression.

Re: AA small blind
 

top pair
top pair plus flush draw
top pair plus straight draw
two pair
set
flush draw

dont get all defensive bro I'm just saying i'm seeing the turn is all

Re: AA small blind
 

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1014799
<font color="white">pokenum -h as ac - 9s 9c - qs kc -- 9d jc tc
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Jc Tc 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 54 5.98 849 94.02 0 0.00 0.060
9s 9c 305 33.78 598 66.22 0 0.00 0.338
Qs Kc 544 60.24 359 39.76 0 0.00 0.602
</font>

Re: AA small blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1014799
<font color="white">pokenum -h as ac - 9s 9c - qs kc -- 9d jc tc
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Jc Tc 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 54 5.98 849 94.02 0 0.00 0.060
9s 9c 305 33.78 598 66.22 0 0.00 0.338
Qs Kc 544 60.24 359 39.76 0 0.00 0.602
</font>

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oh they had the nuts why didnt you say that

nice fold