Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

Saturday June 4 at Caesars In, sold out at 120 players.

I'm in MP, blinds are 300/600 and skyrocketing every 15
minutes. One time we only got in 4 hands in a 15 minute
period, anyway.....I get KK, I have 7,000T, the UTG has
about 15K chips and raises to 3K, it's folded to the guy
on my right who I thought folded. I said I'm all-in and the
guy freaks a little telling me he has'nt acted yet. I apologized and then he starts shaking like hell and digging at his chips because he's got part of them jammed up between the felt and the railing. He says he's going all-in
too with 8500T. I folded my KK and it goes back to the UTG who called his 8500 all-in. Heads up.

UTG had A Q and shaky had QQ. Junk hits the board and QQ
is good. I feel sick [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

21,000 chips would have been pretty healthy right about then.

But the way he was acting, I strongly felt he had AA, the
re-buy and add-on period was over and it was a tad more
serious play. I had just been moved to the table so I had
no reads on guy to my right other than current observations.

I went on to finish 18th.

Thanks for reading and any comments.
Have you ever folded KK pre-flop (in a MTT) ?

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

[ QUOTE ]
One time we only got in 4 hands in a 15 minute
period,

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded my KK

[/ QUOTE ]

With a fast structure like this, do you really think there's a better time for you to double up?

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

Have you ever folded KK pre-flop (in a MTT) ?

No. And if I ever do, take me out an shoot me.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

Not in a live $100 MTT.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

don't want to jump on you here, but given the blind structure you described, with KK I don't care if the guy was doing the chicken dance before pushing in.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

In any tournament structure this fold would at least be debatable. Here, it's downright horrible.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

Well, I suppose some confluence of events could convince me to fold KK in a situation like this. However, it hasn't happened yet, and I probably have a better chance to win the lottery than run into that circumstance. Thing is, you're in one of those superfast blind structure tournaments that drive me crazy. You are pretty much forced to gamble. There's only one hand better to gamble with. Bad fold.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

You probably should not be playing in the tourney if you are going to do something dumb like that.

OK, verdict is in..........thanks
 

I had never played that long in a live MTT and it was my
third one. I never realized until too late, that you are
indeed forced to gamble.
I think folding KK is probably an OK move if you are
ITM at the final table, and there are a couple of all-ins
ahead of you.
Next time, thanks.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

I agree with blinds going up that fast it would be perfect to double up. Obviously you would think one has an ace, not likely two of em but you can't lay it down here.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever folded KK pre-flop (in a MTT) ?

No. And if I ever do, take me out an shoot me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have never laid down KK before, you are not a good MTT player. If you can not sniff out an obvious AA, you are not a good player.

However, you can't get carried away at start to fold KK almost routinely to a raise and a reraise.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

I've folded KK to a limp reraise when i was sure the guy had KK ir AA, it went like this (me on button)
UTG+1 limps for 100
3 folds
3 calls
I make it 600 to go,
UTG goes all in for 4000
4 folds.

However in thsi structure no you can't fold it, unless of course you're 100% sure of AA, I'd fold JJ or QQ in this position and you can tell yourself he probably has KK or at least AK but to fold KK, no I wouldn't.
of course if you two are chip leading a tourny and he moves all in and you're pretty sure he'd only do it with AA/KK feel free to fold, but I woulnd't fold it in this position.

Re: OK, verdict is in..........thanks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never realized until too late, that you are
indeed forced to gamble.
I think folding KK is probably an OK move if you are
ITM at the final table, and there are a couple of all-ins
ahead of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 11xBB. I don't care if nine people are allin in front of you, this is a call.

The situations where people fold KK are with very deep money and good players, such as a big cash game or early in a major tournament. Sometimes with a thrid or fourth raise allin, ou suspect your opponent has aces. Here the money is not deep enough for three raises.

I would never fold KK at a final table, because the money isn't deep enough.

Poker is a gambling game. If you are not willing to gamble, you will not do well at it. This sort of play is known as weak/tight.

If you are making folds this bad, you are not at the level where you should be considering folding KK under any circumstances.

Re: OK, verdict is in..........thanks
 

I agree with all of the above is that it's a bad fold given the circumstances but what I don't understand is that you declared "all-in" out of turn was were then able to fold. Are these house rules or why wasn't your word binding. Normally when you act out of turn the action should stand regardless or what the other player has yet to do. For instance if you had said "raise" not realising that the other player had yet to act and he turned out to raise then you would have to re-raise. Those are the rules and I don't see how you were allowed to fold.

Re: OK, verdict is in..........thanks
 

Just what I was thinking.
How come you were allowed to fold??

Cheers

DD

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

I'll throw in my sarcastic remark...

You should fold this only if you folded AA on the previous hand.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

I'm very surprised at this fold. I have heard of ver good, high stakes players folding KK preflop - but they have an excellent read to go along with the play. If you know that a player would only go all-in undercertain conditions w/ AA, then you fold KK under those conditions.

Your post does not seem to mesh with that reasoning. You simply had a "feeling" that the guy had AA. Also, the blinds are going up fast and you don't have that many chips. Of course you go all-in with the K's!

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

There are some cases where you can fold KK, for example UTG limps, you raise, 2-3 people after you raise/go all-in and UTG goes all-in. Even if UTG dont have aces, which seems likely, it sure looks like someone has em. This is especially true if you have a solid and tight table image (which would make people reluctant to reraise with QQ).

With only a raise and reraise before you, there is no way you can lay down KK. The only exception would be if the reraiser is a top-player who goes all-in and has less chips than the original raiser, and therefore would be very scared of being busted.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

First off, you should have been forced to go all in. Those are the rules.

Second - ask yourself this - you hold AA, utg player raised to 3x blind, you are about to reraise when some over-eager guy next to you says "all in" - what do you do?

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

[ QUOTE ]
...I said I'm all-in and the guy freaks a little telling me he has'nt acted yet...

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had AA, feaking out would be the last thing I would do if someone tried to push out of position. I'd be licking my chops trying to figure how much to bet while still allowing MP to push.

That in itself would convince me MHIG and I would push KK.

That being said, you went with your read. It was wrong but get over it and move on. That's poker...blah, blah, blah.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

I remember seeing an interview with Johnny Chan once, and the interviewer asked him if he could ever lay down KK before the flop. Johnny laughed a bit, thought for a second and said that he didn't think he could...

Gojacketz

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

Sure, folding KK preflop is correct. If the other person flips AA faceup. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

I doubt AA would push in front of you.

Insta-call for me.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

I am sorry to be blunt. However, I think it is the worst play i have ever heard. There is one circumstance that u can fold. If u are at the cutoff and making the money means something to you. Otherwise there is no chance fold is the right move.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

When did they start playing Hold 'Em at Caesars Indiana? Last time I called them they said they still didn't have a poker room.

Re: Is folding KK ever correct? Caesars Indiana live $100 MTT
 

You can fold KK, just not preflop. NO WAY you can put them on AA. If they have it,oh well, thats poker. If you play scared with KK then I dont know how you will win a MTT. And there was only one all in to you. If there are two or three people raising all in before you, then you might have to worry.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] "fold if you know they have it" [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]lol

Re: OK, verdict is in..........thanks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding KK is probably an OK move if you are
ITM at the final table, and there are a couple of all-ins
ahead of you.
Next time, thanks.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. If there is a worse time to fold it than the situation you described, it would be this one. You don't like winning, do you?