25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

I think this is standard, haven't posted in a while though so here we go...4 handed, I open on button with Ah Ks, SR calls in BB. He calls loosely because he pushes me around postflop and I don't do much about it.

Flop is As Ts 8h, he checks, I bet pot of $375 (normally here btw I'd bet $300 with a pair of aces so I bet pot to mix it up), he minraises to $750 I call. As I said, he pushes me around post flop but don't forget that he's spirit rock so he's good and not crazy.

Turn is 4h, he checks, pot is $1700 or $1600, I bet $1400, he hesitates and calls. Pot is $4500, we both have $2500 left, river comes 8s, he checks, I go all in.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

It's close between a check behind or the all in on the river, but with your read, I think all in was the right move.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

What possible winning hand can SR be checking on the river?

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

Other than checking the river, this seems pretty standard and boring. Betcha he folded, didn't he?

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

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What possible winning hand can SR be checking on the river?

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He either has a huge hand, or a very weak one.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

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What possible winning hand can SR be checking on the river?

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He either has a huge hand, or a very weak one.

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Or a mediocre one like AJ.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

yeah a medicore hand seems most likely to me

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What possible winning hand can SR be checking on the river?

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He either has a huge hand, or a very weak one.

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Why would he check-call the turn with a "very weak" hand, and make no attempt to steal the pot on the river? Or perhaps a better question might be, what do you consider to be "very weak" in this case?

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

Anything from AT, knowing hero has a bigger ace and who thinks his hand just improved dramatically...to the boat thinking hero will bet the flush.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

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yeah a medicore hand seems most likely to me

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So then you want a call on the river, right? So then why do you move in? Is this more likely to be called then a bet that is a fraction of given pot?

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

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Anything from AT, knowing hero has a bigger ace and who thinks his hand just improved dramatically...to the boat thinking hero will bet the flush.

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But is he really afraid of hero folding a flush/bigger ace here getting 3-1?

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

On the river, all in is like 1/2 the pot.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

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On the river, all in is like 1/2 the pot.


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Meh, I'm an idiot.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

I like it. Nh.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What possible winning hand can SR be checking on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

He either has a huge hand, or a very weak one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he check-call the turn with a "very weak" hand, and make no attempt to steal the pot on the river? Or perhaps a better question might be, what do you consider to be "very weak" in this case?

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I was thinking a mid Ace.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

how do you interpret his check/call on the turn? im trying to figure out what hands it makes sense for. if he has you beat on the turn i dont get why he wouldnt push given the board and the amounts of money left. could he have something like Ahxh/QhJh/JhTh that he was just kind of screwing around with on the flop that turned into a strong enough draw that he wants to try to keep from getting raised off the pot? the reason why the turn call seems a little odd to me if he just has a weaker A is because he is getting such a large % of his stack in the middle that i would expect he might commit to the hand and push if he thinks you have a weaker A or are bluffing and fold otherwise. maybe im off on this. would you expect him to call with something like AJ with the expectation that you will check behind on the river?

on the river i dont get how he can have you beat and not be betting. whether you made your draw or had a hand already it has to look to him like you have a hand so checking to induce a bluff doesnt make much sense. if he had you beat before the river i dont see how he wouldnt push the turn. if he made his hand on the river i dont see how he doesnt bet so it looks like the most likely scenario is you are winning and he is folding.

were you planning to call a push on the turn? river?

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

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were you planning to call a push on the turn? river?

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I'm assuming he was because he's only pushing on the river if he wants a call. SR isn't going to fold an ace here getting 3-1 on his money if he thought it was best the whole way.

edit: that means, yes, I think he would call a push on the river. on the turn, I don't know. probably. but i guess I would just let him answer that...

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

this obviously comes down to reads and knowing your player, but given the history between the two of you and given his aggressive style, did you consider checking behind on the turn and then calling any bet on the river no matter what?

seems like a good way to induce a bluff vs. an aggressive player who "pushes you around post-flop" frequently.

you just calling the min-raise and then checking behind shows a lot of weakness and i think there is a greater chance that he will bluff at the river if you check behind, and it will be harder to get paid off by a worse hand if you bet the turn.

smooth calling a check-raise in position and then firing the turn is a HUGE sign of strength.
that being said if he had you beat i think he insta-pushes river due to the fact that you obviously like your hand.

which once again reinforces the validity of checking behind on the turn, just as long as you are committed to calling any bet on the river regardless of the card that falls.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

You need to have a very strong read that he might put you on a bluff and call whit a marginal hand (like AJ) to make that push.

I really like riverboatking's analysis of the hand.


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

why didnt you just rereaise all in on the flop. for the 1400 extra you got you gave him two draws to beat you which it looks like you would pay off.
plus maybe thats why he pushes you around. you dont stand up to him. here is the spot to do it.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

I likle the way you played this one bruiser, it smells like a worse ace of busted draw.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

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why didnt you just rereaise all in on the flop. for the 1400 extra you got you gave him two draws to beat you which it looks like you would pay off.
plus maybe thats why he pushes you around. you dont stand up to him. here is the spot to do it.

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ray zee this is the math always in the back of my mind in situations like this. say he has a flush draw, he is about 33% likely to get there by the river so if I put him on a draw and reraise to protect my hand i am only gaining 33% equity in the 1400 in the pot currently for a gain of $460. if i'm putting it all in the middle maybe h'll bet out pot again on the turn which gains me more than $460, or maybe my all in will push him off a worst hand when it would have extracted value by calling. thoughts?

from the way i play i don't think he's calling a reraise from me there with a worst hand (which i guess makes this a good time to bluff reraise). CWL, your thoughts are pretty much exactly what i was thinking. he folded the river btw.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

i don't really see an advantage to pushing the river, other than the slight possibility of getting SR to fold another AK. do you think he'd call with AQ/AJ? do you think he'd fold a flush (even though he can't have the nut flush, and even though the board is paired)? i think the chances of the all-in being called by a worse hand, or making a better hand fold, are remote.

Re: 25/50 Hand vs. Spirt Rock
 

Aer you advocating an all-in bet on the flop to shut the opponent out from drawing? Surely a good player is not going to call us with a worse hand....even if it is 4-handed. Or am I simply giving people too much credit?