Cold Calling
 

Long time lurker and relative beginer to poker here. Could someone explain to me the reason that cold calling is such a heinous act. If you look across the forum I often see people describing their leaks as cold calling too much, and I agree that it is bad to have a lack of aggression when you should actually be reraising instead of calling, but it often seems to me with fairly good hands in many cases it would just be best to call. Help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Cold Calling
 

Because if you are in a game with good players, chances are your "pretty good hand" is no good unless you're lucky. If UTG raises, and you are in middle position and look down at KQs or AJs you are most likely in trouble.

Re: Cold Calling
 

The main reasons why cold calling is so bad are:

1. You do not force your opponent to make a decision. Therefore, he cannot make another mistake. If he does make a mistake, it will cost him another bet, not the whole pot.

2. You do not gain any information about your opponent's hand. When you reraise someone, you are defining your hand strongly. Their reaction to this is often genuine.

3. It is more difficult to win without hitting your hand. If you suddenly wake up at the end of the hand, your opponent will likely be suspicious and call you down. This makes it much more difficult to bluff your way out of a bind. (This kind of play is opponent specific anyway, but needs to be set up in the early betting rounds as well as prior hands.)

This all assumes a limit game, BTW. Cold calling is not as bad in NL - but it still depends on your opponents...

Re: Cold Calling
 

Heres when I think cold calling preflop is correct.
1. I've got a small pair and i'm getting good odds on my set. I think a 3bet here would narrow the field and actually make my odds worse.
2. I'm in a pot where a 3bet won't narrow the field and i'm very likeley to show down the hand. Say your up against a player who raises 20% of the time and shows down 60% of the time. If i can't isolate us and my hand needs improvement, a 3bet here is pointless. Or say your up against a player who has to have a large pair to raise the pot and he's not dropping it, and you have jts and the the pot is going to be seven way. No need to put more money in the pot.

Almost all of my preflop and flop raises are designed to protect my hand, next is value and information.

As the game gets tighter your aggression has to increase because of the chance of your opponent folding. But in lots of games you know that you are going to have to show a hand down. Simply look at your opponents went to showdown statistic to determine how to play against him and try to recognize when your raise will actually give you a better chance of winning. Don't be a robot.

Re: Cold Calling
 

There's a whole lot of bad advice in this post. I'll let others elaborate, because correcting the mistakes would take me 15 minutes I'm not willing to spend.

Re: Cold Calling
 

Keep on raising calling stations clayton. Don't get me wrong, I very rarely cold call, i'm just saying there are times when it is correct.

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's a whole lot of bad advice in this post. I'll let others elaborate, because correcting the mistakes would take me 15 minutes I'm not willing to spend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Cold Calling
 

Dov lists some pretty good reasons not to cold call (though I would say her reasons are a lot more applicable to NL and or tournament play), but misses the most important reason of all.

Simply put, most starting hands do not offer a positive return on investment if you have to pay 2SB to see a flop.

There are relatively few starting hands that make enough money, in the long run, to show a positive return on a two small bet investment. For example, you will win a huge pot (most of the time) when you make a set of threes with 3c3d -- but the pot just wont be huge enough to offset all the other times you muck your hand on the flop or the turn.

Are there hands that can still show a positive return on a 2SB investment? Sure, especially in a game with a lot of players seeing the flop (SSHE's late position, loose game reccomendations, for example, reccommend cold calling with any pocket pair below TT and a wide variety of suited aces and connectors provided there are sufficient limpers.)

jc




[ QUOTE ]
The main reasons why cold calling is so bad are:

1. You do not force your opponent to make a decision. Therefore, he cannot make another mistake. If he does make a mistake, it will cost him another bet, not the whole pot.

2. You do not gain any information about your opponent's hand. When you reraise someone, you are defining your hand strongly. Their reaction to this is often genuine.

3. It is more difficult to win without hitting your hand. If you suddenly wake up at the end of the hand, your opponent will likely be suspicious and call you down. This makes it much more difficult to bluff your way out of a bind. (This kind of play is opponent specific anyway, but needs to be set up in the early betting rounds as well as prior hands.)

This all assumes a limit game, BTW. Cold calling is not as bad in NL - but it still depends on your opponents...

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]

1. I've got a small pair and i'm getting good odds on my set. I think a 3bet here would narrow the field and actually make my odds worse.


[/ QUOTE ]
From late position, sure. If you're getting proper odds on your set... which I would say is 4-6 other people in the pot
with you. From earlier position (where you can't be sure you will get big enough volume in the pot to justify the investment) or in a tighter game, its worth it to just throw the small pair away.
[ QUOTE ]

2. I'm in a pot where a 3bet won't narrow the field and i'm very likeley to show down the hand. Say your up against a player who raises 20% of the time and shows down 60% of the time. If i can't isolate us and my hand needs improvement, a 3bet here is pointless. Or say your up against a player who has to have a large pair to raise the pot and he's not dropping it, and you have jts and the the pot is going to be seven way. No need to put more money in the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, if the pots going to be seven-way and not three bet a hand like JTs is probably worth a cold call (SSHE would argue that it is). But the thing is, you can only "know" that from late position, after several people have already entered the pot.

[ QUOTE ]

Almost all of my preflop and flop raises are designed to protect my hand, next is value and information.


[/ QUOTE ]
Makes sense, but I think when someone says "player X cold calls too much" he's talking about a player who cold calls with hands that he should be folding like A6s, 33, 89s from early position (or when there are not enough people in the pot) and hands like KTo, QTo, JKo, 89o, A8o from any position.


[ QUOTE ]

As the game gets tighter your aggression has to increase because of the chance of your opponent folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a tighter game, cold calling is almost never correct. There simply arent that many hands that can:
A. be played profitably for two bets with only one or two other opponents in the pot and
B. Do not demand a value raise. Yeah, there are still a few (AQs, for example), but most hands with which you can call a raise in a tight game make more money when reraised.

Re: Cold Calling
 

I agree with defence18, Dov, Spladle Master and senjitsu; who gave you a lot of good analysis. However, I would add that poker players, like Presidents, should never say "never." Because there are so few situations in which cold-calling is correct, it can be very disconcerting to your opponents. They will probably peg you as a bad player with a pretty strong hand, you can exploit that misperception. Once they learn that you are a good player, they may fold rather than try to figure out what's going on. That can also be exploited.

Every time it's your turn you can fold, call or raise. If you rule out one of those options, you lose some possible value and make your game more predictable. Just because most people do something too much doesn't mean you should never do it. So cold calling is not heinous, just a tactic that should be used very rarely.

Re: Cold Calling
 

In limit poker, cold calling probably causes people to lose more money than any other single mistake. It's not just the 2 SB that you put into the pot when cold calling a raise, its the extra bets on later streets you lose when you hit a very good SECOND best hand.

In my opinon, you should only cold call a raise with a hand you are willing to reraise with. If this is the case, then you should usually be three betting instead of cold calling.

Re: Cold Calling
 

Just to give some SSHE perspective - cold call only with AQs, AJs, and KQs (some med/small PP and suited connectores IF 3 or more have entered the pot. Roughly per SSHE that works out to cold calling about ONCE every 5hrs of online play (assuming 100 hands/hr).

That's a pretty strong argument for not doing it very often. Fold or re-raise should be the normal action.

Re: Cold Calling
 

Most hands are not strong enough to enter a raised pot with no discount. (Limping hands would be happy to get a 50% discount, which is why if you limp, you should call one more bet from a raise behind you.) A common leak is to cold-call with a hand worth limping. This costs significantly less than 1 SB (out of the 2 SB put in) but the pot is often large, so many losing players don't notice how bad it is. It is a serious problem because it is a mistake that can be repeated often.

Hands that are strong enough to enter a raised pot with no discount are often better off 3-betting. This applies more pressure to the blinds and limpers. It's quite possible that you and the original raiser have an equity edge over the other players in the pot and are both happier to put 3 bets in whether your opponents call or fold.

In NL, it is much more commonly correct to call a raise (and much more commonly correct to limp and then fold to a raise). The raise is larger, so there is no need to 3-bet to add pressure to the blinds. Position is more important, so you may enter the pot with no discount even if you think you are behind the raiser's range of hands. Reraising lightly is dangerous, since it may be very costly to let preflop raiser act again.

There are some hands and situations in which it may be right to cold-call in limit when many players wouldn't. Many people are familiar with the idea of cold-calling with KQs, AJs, and AQs, but in some circumstances, I believe it is right to cold-call with AK when you feel you would have a more significant equity edge in a multiway pot.

Re: Cold Calling
 

You guys are completely forgetting about "floating". I got the term from a Mike I. post but it's been something I've been doing for a little while now without really realizing it.

It's a move that (I think) works better in NL than limit (though there are times where it's applicable to limit), but is powerful against the right opponents. It's pretty much cold-calling a raise against a relatively weak player with the intention of stealing the pot in a later round. You're really just betting on your opponent to miss his hand, and if you call with a hand with big implied odds, you also can make money by hitting your miracle hand and getting your opponent to stack off. So even though your hand itself may not have much equity, if you incorporate your position, fold-equity and implied odds in, it might be profitable to cold-call every once in a while with a junky hand.

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dov lists some pretty good reasons not to cold call (though I would say her reasons are a lot more applicable to NL and or tournament play), but misses the most important reason of all.

[/ QUOTE ]

She's a he.

Except when he plays with a skirt on...
[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]
She's a he.

Except when he plays with a skirt on...
[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol... I have no idea why I assumed you were female... maybe I was thinking Dov like the bird Dove...

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]
In limit poker, cold calling probably causes people to lose more money than any other single mistake. It's not just the 2 SB that you put into the pot when cold calling a raise, its the extra bets on later streets you lose when you hit a very good SECOND best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong, i very rareley cold call, but I strongly disagree with this comment pertaining to this arguement. People seem to think that there preflop play is the most important aspect of there game and that couldn't be further from the truth. With bad starting requirements you will lose, but good players realize not to play bad hands and to stay out of the pot when it is likely that you are dominated. When I first went pro I was much more passive on the flop but still managed to turn a hefty profit. I've actually experimented with several playing styles and they all turn a profit, this is because I have the ability to play the flop and later betting rounds well. If you are cold calling with bad or dominated hands this very well could be the worst leak, but this topic isn't about cold calling with dominated hands, it's about how to play your premium and other profitable hands against a raise.

I'm talking about limit, in NL you will cold call a lot more often and use your posistion. In NL you are trying to break people, and this is often done by catching a str8, a set, or an unlikely hand to beat a big pair. Also in posistion you can cold call with almost any hand if your against a real predictable player who raises 2bets with AK but 4bets with AA. If I know he has AK and I have posistion, my cards are pretty irrelevant because I'm taking the pot from him on the flop when he misses his pair 66% of the time.

Re: Cold Calling
 

I believe the initial subject of the thread was the guy who asked "why, when people describe their play, do they frequently cite cold calling as such a henious act.

Preflop play is not the most important aspect of the game. However, if you regularly call 2 bets cold with weak, off suit hands that should appropriately be folded, that _is_ a henious leak because you just have so many opportunities to do it. No amount of skill after the flop can recoup those losses... you just dont flop enough big hands.

I would tend to agree that calling when you should be reraising is somewhat less harmful -- you can make your money onlater streets, and the deception you add to your game make up for the players you might knock out and/or the extra bets you might lose.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In limit poker, cold calling probably causes people to lose more money than any other single mistake. It's not just the 2 SB that you put into the pot when cold calling a raise, its the extra bets on later streets you lose when you hit a very good SECOND best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong, i very rareley cold call, but I strongly disagree with this comment. People seem to think that there preflop play is the most important aspect of there game and that couldn't be further from the truth. With bad starting requirements you will lose, but good players realize not to play bad hands and to stay out of the pot when it is likely that you are dominated. When I first went pro I was much more passive on the flop but still managed to turn a hefty profit. I've actually experimented with several playing styles and they all turn a profit, this is because I have the ability to play the flop and later betting rounds well. If you are cold calling with bad or dominated hands this very well could be the worst leak, but this topic isn't about cold calling with dominated hands, it's about how to play your premium and other profitable hands against a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the initial subject of the thread was the guy who asked "why, when people describe their play, do they frequently cite cold calling as such a henious act.

Preflop play is not the most important aspect of the game. However, if you regularly call 2 bets cold with weak, off suit hands that should appropriately be folded, that _is_ a henious leak because you just have so many opportunities to do it. No amount of skill after the flop can recoup those losses... you just dont flop enough big hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing that people should cold call with AQ, it's a simple muck or 3bet depending on the raising standards of your opponent. If you have any of the troulbe hands it's usually a pretty easy laydown unless your up against a real loose raiser and then you are 3betting. Not one thing I have said has suggested playing trouble hands incorrectly. All i'm trying to say is that cold calling is rarely the correct play, but there are times when not cold calling is a mistake.

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are completely forgetting about "floating". I got the term from a Mike I. post but it's been something I've been doing for a little while now without really realizing it.

It's a move that (I think) works better in NL than limit (though there are times where it's applicable to limit), but is powerful against the right opponents. It's pretty much cold-calling a raise against a relatively weak player with the intention of stealing the pot in a later round. You're really just betting on your opponent to miss his hand, and if you call with a hand with big implied odds, you also can make money by hitting your miracle hand and getting your opponent to stack off. So even though your hand itself may not have much equity, if you incorporate your position, fold-equity and implied odds in, it might be profitable to cold-call every once in a while with a junky hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Floating loses alot of effectiveness on many LL tables as you will likely have to go to a showdown to win.

If one is having trouble with why not to coldcall in general, I wouldn't recommend learning about floating yet.

b

Re: Cold Calling
 

And sen,the topic isn't why is cold calling a heinous act, he simply said he understands aggression but it seems like there are times when cold calling would be correct, and he is right.

Re: Cold Calling
 

No one mentioned position relative to the preflop raiser?

The closer the raiser is on your right, meaning no one in between, the more you want to 3 bet. The more opponents in between, then coldcalling can become more of an option.

b

Re: Cold Calling
 

The answer to your question lies in what hands you coldcall with. Hands with good implied odds that play well multi-way, like pairs and suited connectors, are considered acceptable for coldcalling. Hands that are usually dominated, like Axo-KQo-etc., are not.

The other factor that determines whether it was a good call is how many were in the pot when you called. If you're going for implied odds, you need others in. You don't want to be the first coldcaller with T9s unless you're sure others will come along.

Re: Cold Calling
 

the main reason coldcalling sucks is because the hands that lend themselves to it are usually dominated. kq, aj, kj, a10 etc. are all usually dominated by a preflop raiser. playing dominated hands is a good way to go broke.

of course this does not always apply, and it is often correct to coldcall with pocket pairs so long as the pot is multiway.

superstrong hands like aa, kk and ak are better to 3bet because you have such a strong equity advantage (not to "get people out")

Re: Cold Calling
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get me wrong, i very rareley cold call, but I strongly disagree with this comment pertaining to this arguement. People seem to think that there preflop play is the most important aspect of there game and that couldn't be further from the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I totally understand what you are saying. However, you are missing my point. I did not mean to infer that cold calling is ALWAYS wrong, but I meant to infer that it is VERY rarely right.

The FACT is that when you cold call preflop too much you make it VERY difficult to win, even with solid play post flop.

[ QUOTE ]
With bad starting requirements you will lose, but good players realize not to play bad hands and to stay out of the pot when it is likely that you are dominated. When I first went pro I was much more passive on the flop but still managed to turn a hefty profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand. Basically my point was that by NOT cold calling often you take the chances of hitting really good second best hands down a couple notches. It makes it easier to make a profit when you don't make a fundamental (theory of poker) mistake by calling a hand you should have folded preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
I've actually experimented with several playing styles and they all turn a profit, this is because I have the ability to play the flop and later betting rounds well. If you are cold calling with bad or dominated hands this very well could be the worst leak, but this topic isn't about cold calling with dominated hands, it's about how to play your premium and other profitable hands against a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

While that may be true I simply wanted to reinforce the fact that cold calling is a pretty weak play. It should not be done often. I believe I have done it once in my last 5k hands online.

Re: Cold Calling
 

Question: Occasionally in some of the crazier 1/2 6-max games a "bet-em-up" player will raise preflop 60-80% of the time and the other players will often tend to call - maybe 4 seeing the flop on average. It seems that in some of these games it's almost like everyone is playing blinds plus a 1 or 2 sb ante.

Also the raiser is not indicating a strong hand with his raise so that reduces the danger of being dominated. And if you follow the usual guidelines for seldom coldcalling you will be sitting out 90% of the hands or reraising with hands you would normally limp with. And if you wait for a decent hand to raise with-- well usually eveyone folds instantly when you enter.

So what are the implications of this type of game for when you should consider cold-calling? I know there is a lot of money to be made when this kind of action is going on. I just don't know the strategy for these game conditions.

Re: Cold Calling
 

Usually reraise or fold.

The only exception to this might be a PP or a suited connector, but I wouldn't want to go lower than 89 anyway. (I still prefer to 3 bet with hands as weak as 66)

It's not a bad thing to have everyone fold when you 3 bet, especially after some people have already called.

I feel that it is important in games like this to make people realize that when you are in the pot, they will have to pay a lot to see the hand to the end.

This will make them more likely to fold against you, so that when you whiff with AK, you still have some fold equity.

Otherwise you have to play hit to win.

What you describe is one of the best game conditions available.

BTW, just because it's raise or fold (basically) does not mean you shouldn't be in a lot of hands. You should still be around 30% vpip, but just ramp up the aggression. Many of the pots will be large and you want to win them right away.

I have been playing a lot of shot handed lately, so some of this may be too aggressive for a full game, ESPECIALLY VPIP. Sorry, but I don't have time to rewrite this right now.