Collusion or just being friendly?
 

I play about once every three weeks in a live $500 max-buy-in NLHE game. I’ve played enough to know several faces and their playing styles. In the last few games, I’ve witnessed these type of activities amongst about 4-5 regular players, some of which are always in this game (the “Regulars”):

When a pot is heads-up against two Regulars, they will call out “check it down” and not bet. They will frequently even turn their hands face up on the table and tell the dealer to just run out the cards. This does not happen between a Regular and a non-Regular. This is an open effort to save the Regulars from taking money from each other, and instead go after the money on the table from the non-Regulars.

Some of the Regulars openly discuss with other Regulars what they would have done after a hand is over, when other non-Regulars were in the pot. “I would have folded if you raised me on the flop.” “I checked the flop so you could bet and take the pot.” Sometimes its called out pre-flop: “If you raise, I will fold this hand.” None of this discussion clearly crosses the line into cheating or open collusion, and it could easily be interpreted as the type of normal banter that goes on at any table. But the nature of this conversation suggests collusion -- one Regular telling to another Regular what he means by certain actions, so they can effectively isolate the non-Regulars that are in the pot.

I hesitate to say anything, mainly because I am routinely taking their money, Regular or not -- leave a good thing alone. It smacks of collusion, but its done in the open and I’m not detecting any hidden funny business (not that I have any experience at noticing cheating).

One other player who used to play in this game says he stays away because of these guys openly checking it down with each other heads-up, but not with him or others that are not "part of their group". I think he senses cheating, and has just decided to stay away.

Thoughts?

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

i don't like it, but as lon as they're doing it in the open, and it doesn't hurt you, I don't think you need to speak up against it if you don't want to. My guess is that the guy running the game is probably one of the "regulars." If so, saying something isn't going to do any good anyway. Furthermore, this isn't a tourney, so the other players are free to get up and cash in their chips if they want to.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

I would have zero interest in playing in this game, but if you're making money, more power to you I guess.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

As long as you can take money out of this game, keep playing.

Don't bite when they ask you if you want to play in the "special" $5,000 buyin.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

If you keep winning money, keep playing. If they want to give information about their games to their buddies (and you can hear it and learn from it) keep going.

I do hate those games as well. I like it when my friends try to punish me for playing in the game. Treat it like an "earning game" as opposed to a "learning game".

And definitely avoid the $5,000 special game the writer before me mentioned.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

What you describe is collusion. Even if they don't raise you off your hand to get heads up with another regular.

I used to play in home games like this and stopped going when they kept it up. This isn't poker and the only way you will win in this game is when the deck clobbers you over the head.

You should say something to them, and if they don't stop it, then you should find another game.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

Something I guess I didn't make clear -- this is in a casino. Since Missouri still has a "$500 loss limit" (can only buy $500 in chips every 2 hours -- a holdover from the 2-hour "riverboat cruise" concept), the $500 and $1000 NLHE games are the "feature table" at this casino on Friday and Saturday nights, respectively.

Some of the responses so far may assume this is a home game. (There is zero chance of a $5000 NLHE game until Missouri drops the $500-loss limit.)

Change any answers?

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

This is in a casino? The casino is allowing this open blatent collusion of the regulars against the new players? I'd find another casino; at least another table.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

You described three different kinds of behavior. An agreement, even informal, for two players to always check it down in showdowns is not legal, but doesn't make any difference to you. It's perfectly legal if two people are in the pot for one to offer a split; the only difference here is there seems to be an unspoken agreement. What does hurt you if they do this in three way pots.

Talking after the hand about what you would have done is also legal, as long as it's open. If you tell one person your cards, you should tell everyone. If there's some implied negotiation about future collusion, that's wrong, but it doesn't hurt you as long as you can hear everything.

Talking during the hand about what you will do is not legal. If it's just banter, so people often do the opposite of what they say, it's illegal but not harmful. If it's honest talk it's out-and-out cheating.

But remember, cheaters are the easiest people to beat. You don't stalk away from the table with outraged honor or pull your sixgun, you smile and take their money. That's not only profitable, it's justice.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

In a casino this is completely unacceptable - I can't believe management allows this to happen. Is it a small room dependant on business from these guys?

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

I have seen this happen in card rooms. Bay 101 in San Jose to name one.

From a competitive point of view, this always bothers me as an outsider. Even though it is "between the brothers", it makes you wonder if the rest of the game is on the up and up. Are there going to be any teaming/signaling when two of them are in a pot with an outsider?

From a social point of view, it is less bothersome. A lot of people look at chopping the blinds, or not betting with your buddies when heads up as being friendly...Also, I'm sure a lot of players don't have a lot of money (and are losing players), so they are looking stretch out their gambling dollar by not playing too many pots.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

what casino is this out of curiosity.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

I'd like to know also. I'm in St Louis. I've only played limit but want to make sure to avoid this game if I try NL.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

Harrah's North Kansas City.

I really don't think there is intentional collusion/cheating by most of the Regulars, but there are some that I cannot be so certain, which is why I raise this issue here.

I'm having good fortune in this game, so I'll probably keep quiet unless something clearly crosses the line to my detriment. A few of these Regulars are routinely the Table Police. They do know the rules, and any attempt to challenge them would probably be met with a recitation of the rules, and an explanation of how they are not being broken. I think these guys are pushing it, and they (probably unknowingly) have run off at least one player.

AaronBrown, your post was very helpful. "If it's honest talk it's out-and-out cheating." This is probably the line they will (or have) crossed.

Its never been a hand that I've been involved in, but I've heard comments from one Regular to another that clearly signals what they will do based on the other Regular's actions. Something chatty like -- "Don't you raise, or I'm out!" = I have a moderate hand, raise if you are strong so you can isolate the third non-Regular limper. Things like that.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

hmmm...never played there, usually go to Ameristar, though I don't play B & M a whole lot.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

Literally the exact same thing happens in our local casino - generally the Chinese guys collude in this manner. It's definately and undisputably collusion - but the problem is the house takes no interest.
Their stated stance is that "We provide the table, you pay rental to use the table, the rest is up to you". No house dealers, [chinese] players take it in turns [and take extortionate rake].

However, they don't seem to be malicious, and they're godawful. I still play and generally do well in the cash games.

The problem is in the MTT at the start of the night - I've stopped playing these because this "checking down" effectively means chinese players don't pay blinds. Being live poker in a poxy casino, you START with 10bb stacks.. and it gets worse from there. So, malicious or otherwise, their collusion gives them an unbeatable edge here.

My thoughts are I'd get rid of this if I could, it creates a reasonable amount of -ev to non-colluders - but what can you do?
Dave

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

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Their stated stance is that "We provide the table, you pay rental to use the table, the rest is up to you".

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players take it in turns [and take extortionate rake]

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I'm not sure what 'extortionate' is, but if you mean very high (exorbitant), then what are they providing you for your rental?

A surface, some chips, and a deck of cards?

Are you the only english speaker there? I don't see how you could possibly be a long term winner in this environment. How do you know the players aren't actively manipulating the deck while they discuss it in chinese?!

I would never play there again under any circumstances.

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

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When a pot is heads-up against two Regulars, they will call out “check it down” and not bet. They will frequently even turn their hands face up on the table and tell the dealer to just run out the cards. This does not happen between a Regular and a non-Regular. This is an open effort to save the Regulars from taking money from each other, and instead go after the money on the table from the non-Regulars.


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You could make the same argument about two players chopping the blinds. So long as there are no other players in the hand, there are no other players to whom it is detrimental. While soft playing your friends is against the spirit of poker, some people do it. I fail to see how it would make them more successful in "going after" your or other players' money
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Sometimes its called out pre-flop: “If you raise, I will fold this hand.”


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This is collusion, and should be reported to the floor... everything else in that paragraph is just coffee housing, and not worth worrying about provided it does not happen during the hand.
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Thoughts?

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Yeah... you have a couple of knuckle-heads who soft play each other, reveal their strategy to the table, and are probably playing for fun and not money. Who cares?

If they're actively trying to work together to take money off a decent player, they would probably do little but slow their losses (after all, if they had the conceptual grasp of the game necessary to collude effectively, they wouldnt need to collude to make money)... as it stands, they're probably doing what they do for social reasons, and are costing themselves even more money than they would otherwise.
I would say eat their bankrolls, and thank god for making all the sparrows and all the little fishes.

jc

Re: Collusion or just being friendly?
 

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I'm not sure what 'extortionate' is, but if you mean very high (exorbitant), then what are they providing you for your rental?

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ex·tor·tion·ate: 1. Characterized by extortion 2.Exorbitant; immoderate: "extortionate interest rates."

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Are you the only english speaker there? I don't see how you could possibly be a long term winner in this environment. How do you know the players aren't actively manipulating the deck while they discuss it in chinese?!


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I see your point, but i think you're assuming the worst. Its easy to see how he _could_ be a long term winner there... there could be a bunch of non-english speaking players there who play poorly in general but more poorly against one another. I guess, if you're in a card room that allows non english at the table, you can never "know" that your opponents aren't don everest-like figures trying to scam you out of your money with subtle collusion. But if the game's profitable, and if the players in it are in their game frame and not their social frame, then id just count my blessings.