Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

5-10NL, Pokerroom, full table. Villain has been aggressive after the flop. Hero has $500, 55 in UTG. Villain has Hero covered. Hero and Villain both limp, folded to blinds, SB folds, BB checks.

Pot is $35, flop comes KT5, two spades. Hero bets $25, Villain raises to $50, Hero calls.

Turn comes K. Hero bets $50, Villain raises to $125, Hero?

Results in white
<font color="white"> Basically, Hero reraises all-in, villain calls. River irrelevant, villain flips over KT. </font>

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

yes. limped pot.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

not that likely, as villian could probably just as easily have KQ or KJ in this spot.

you only had 50BB.

if you just call his turn raise, then he is still coming out betting on the river when checked to, likely setting you all in as you have shown you like your hand enough to call that much.

it is possible he may think your and is very weak and you just don't believe him and may make a smaller river bet to make sure you call, but i doubt it.

tough break.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

What was your plan on the turn if an A, 9, or spade came? Why not reraise the min raise on the flop?

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

i agree, you've gotta force the action on this flop....even though it probably wouldn't have mattered b/c you guys just aren't deep enough.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

Hmmm... I actually read him for top pair good kicker, not a straight or flush draw; he seemed relatively ABC with his raises, not LAGgy. So I wasn't worried about an A or 9 coming. I tend to call raises when there is a draw on the board, I have a monster, and the raiser is straightforward in his raises (i.e. he doesn't raise draws). This way, he thinks I'm chasing, and tries to "protect" his hand, which allows me to pop him on the turn (which often looks even more suspiciously like a LAG raising his draw! beautiful).

So I'm not going to raise that flop. I think passive play was the right play against this guy. It just so happens that he hit one of his four outs... and my question stands: do you get away from the low boat?

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

You said you knew that he had top pair. If he was abc with his raises, not LAGgy, would he raise kj, kq , ak before the flop? If he does raise with them, you can almost instantly put him on k10. I think your read should've been to make him pay to catch you and overbet the pot trying to get him either all in or fold. You say slowplaying was best decision, well if it was you got caught. Tough to fold underfull. Only thing I can say is you MIGHT have been able to get away from it with the pot being unraised, but those situations are moment to moment. Tough to answer have to know opponent.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

I believe Brunson says to never lose your stack in a limped pot. Having said that if I'm going to lead I'm going to announce my set with a lead of $100 in an attempt to take the pot down. Being UTG also makes limping with KK a possibility. My mind is already made up to push to any raise, and fold to an unlikely push. I'm not looking to stack somebody with bottom set, especially when there's a flush draw on the flop. If I just get called and the K or T or flush comes on the turn I'll just check fold then go slash my wrists. I just want to take the $35 and play the next hand.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

He'd raise with AK (though limping is not unheard of early), almost surely NOT with KQ or KJ UTG+1. Preflop raising standards are pretty tight at this table.I put him on KQ or KJ. That being said, would you let the hand go?

Also, not really worried about KK. This fella will raise it preflop, in early position; the table was reasonably tight preflop, not too much limping or raising, so KK would raise preflop for value (as opposed to hoping to re-raise) in EP.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

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He'd raise with AK (though limping is not unheard of early), almost surely NOT with KQ or KJ UTG+1. Preflop raising standards are pretty tight at this table.I put him on KQ or KJ. That being said, would you let the hand go?


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If you think he sucks enough to stack off with KQ or KJ here, then raise allin.

Why are you shortstacked?

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

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If you think he sucks enough to stack off with KQ or KJ here, then raise allin.


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Not sure where you got this idea, Creed... the flop in my mind was ideal. He'd value bet his K and protect against a draw. Whether he loses his whole stack is to be determined. I certainly don't think pushing the flop is the most EV play. Sure, KT might call that, but most decent players would lay KQ and KJ in such a situation. I never said the guy was terrible.

Anyways, don't worry about the flop bet.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

If he does have the bigger full, wouldn't it have made just as much sense for him to just call your (really weak) turn bet hoping you make your draw? Why risk raising you out of the pot with a made hand when another free card is more likely to break you rather than him?

I'd push the turn. I could be way wrong on this one but I really don't see you being beaten all that often here. Then again, I play lower stakes - worse opponents.

If I'm way off, please explain to me why.

Thanks,
Kirk R.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

I think most people get stacked on the hand, but I think you should played the flop more aggressively. I would have re-raised the flop to $200 more. There is a decent chance the result would have been the same, but in the cases where he doesn't hit his 4 outs you get paid big.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

This whole don't lose your stack in an unraised pot is rediculous. If someone's losing his or her stack, someone else is taking it. That could easily be you here. With 50BB, this is definetely a situation I want to get all in.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

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This whole don't lose your stack in an unraised pot is ridiculous.

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I agree, I think the idea has been misapplied.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you think he sucks enough to stack off with KQ or KJ here, then raise allin.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure where you got this idea, Creed... the flop in my mind was ideal. He'd value bet his K and protect against a draw. Whether he loses his whole stack is to be determined. I certainly don't think pushing the flop is the most EV play. Sure, KT might call that, but most decent players would lay KQ and KJ in such a situation. I never said the guy was terrible.

Anyways, don't worry about the flop bet.

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I like the flop bet.

I am talking about the turn. If he sucks, it's a clear push allin, because he will call with non-boats.

If he doesn't suck, you have to weigh other options.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

Ah, got it. That makes sense.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe Brunson says to never lose your stack in a limped pot. Having said that if I'm going to lead I'm going to announce my set with a lead of $100 in an attempt to take the pot down. Being UTG also makes limping with KK a possibility. My mind is already made up to push to any raise, and fold to an unlikely push. I'm not looking to stack somebody with bottom set, especially when there's a flush draw on the flop. If I just get called and the K or T or flush comes on the turn I'll just check fold then go slash my wrists. I just want to take the $35 and play the next hand.

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Yeah, when I flop a set I love to quadruple the pot and just take the blinds.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

I stand corrected. Actually Brunson cites this very example and what he is afraid of is the middle card. He recommends proceeding cautiously with bottom set because there is no money in the pot and since there are limpers they are probably all on some kind of draw. Brunson says if you are raised on the flop to go with your instinct, your first impression. Brunson calls that small lead "sending his children out there" and he wants everyone to know that if necessary he will fight with his stack to "protect his children". He'll also fold if he thinks he's up against a bigger set. I guess sometimes you have to sacrifice the kids.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

When the flop hits there is $35 in the pot. When you have flopped bottom set Brunson says to proceed with caution. Since the other players are limping he feels that a player holding the middle pair (T in this case) is a distinct possibility. You don't give up with bottom set, you proceed with caution. The example in his book is something like Q-6-2. With bottom set he's not going to lead with a big bet and start the making of a big pot when ther's only $35 in the pot to start with. I believe he is going "to send his children out" with a $15-$20 lead. Of course everyone knows Brunson will protect his children with his stack. If raised he will fold if he thinks he's up against a set of tens, or he'll duke it out if he thinks your trying to push him off the pot.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

in brunson's example two pair or a big draw are unlikely cards for the limpers to have, whereas in this hand KT is a reasonable hand for your opponent to have.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

In Brunson's days, he was much deeper stacked than this. Has PR corrected its blinds yet? Even if they haven't, losing $500 here is not terrible. If you had a 5k stack, it would be another story.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

Excellent comment. Brunson may have been a great player but his book is not well written (IMHO). Or perhaps its written for another time and a different game, or perhaps I'm not astute enough to fully comprehend all the subtleties. It's very easy to misconstrue or mis-apply his writings to todays online game.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

I would push on his flop raise. He likes his hand and I think I am best. Maybe he doesnt call, but Im not a fan of the board.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

Hi NC,

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Do you get away from THIS hand?

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What? With $500 to begin with? No. Check-raise the turn all-in. As it stands, you should re-min-raise or call, and then put it all in at the next opportunity (barring another T). So he got you--big deal. Nobody who's good is getting away from this with your stack (nor should they).

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

Hi AZK,

LOL. Sorry, my friend, I'm gonna have to call "bullshit" on this one. Don't fold this hand online.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

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I would push on his flop raise. He likes his hand and I think I am best. Maybe he doesnt call, but Im not a fan of the board.

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Pushing is too large a raise. You push when he comes over the top the second time, not the first.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

The example brunson gives talks of a 2 4 J flop in a limped pot. Which is completely different from a K T 5 flop in a limped pot. Here bottom set is gold, unless people dont raise TT pf anymore, and Since OP said villain would raise KK in EP rather than LRR, I am going all the way with this hand.

Re: Do you get away from THIS hand?
 

You are quite right. Since I would normally bring TT in for a preflop raise I would tend to think in this case that a set on T's is not very likely. The more I think about this hand the more I think this would be Brunson's approach. Send out "the children", which is less than a pot sized (normal) bet. When you get some action you're ready to give some action. So you put villain on what? K-T or possibly flush draw? Since you've put villain on possible K-T how are you going to the felt when the board pairs the K?

Actually Brunson says go with your instincts and don't change your mind. If you put villain on a flush draw then the K is a scare card and you can't get away.

Actually easy to play Monday morning QB. What would I have done at the time? Probably screwed the whole thing up.