F for First Amendment
 

Assaulted from both the Left and the Right, that damn concept of free speech looks a bit wobbly on its legs and ready to fall.

[ QUOTE ]
LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Posters that depicted President Bush with a Groucho Marx-style mustache and cigar were ordered torn down at a high school after a student complained.
The posters advertised the students' play, "The Complete History of America (Abridged)," which satirizes U.S. history.

Principal Kenny Lee ordered 100 posters removed from the campus of El Camino Real High School in the Woodland Hills area last week on grounds that they promoted smoking and "endorsing one ideology over another."

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't the principal get the memo? Free speech is all about a person's right to publicly endorse one ideology over another.

CNN Report

Re: F for First Amendment
 

Isnt there a line that needs to be drawn at the high school level and below? Would you allow the same freedom of expression at the high school that you would at the college level?

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]

Didn't the principal get the memo? Free speech is all about a person's right to publicly endorse one ideology over another.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It almost any high school, it's well within the Principle's rights and responsibilities to take actions which maintain a stable learning environment.

[ QUOTE ]
Assaulted from both the Left and the Right, that damn concept of free speech looks a bit wobbly on its legs and ready to fall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Freedom of speech has never been stronger in America or the rest of the world. For basic anecdotal evidence, look at your computer monitor.

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isnt there a line that needs to be drawn at the high school level and below?

[/ QUOTE ]

It appears you missed a memo too. The sky is falling. All our freedoms are being taken away from us.

Ignore the real world where democracy and freedom is spreading in ways which governments can't possibly control (such as the internet tools being used by the doomsayers). Give into your paranoia and accept the hyperbole. Soon all your freedom will belong to us.

Whatta lot of bloggers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ignore the real world where democracy and freedom is spreading in ways which governments can't possibly control (such as the internet tools).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that part is true! The internet and modern technology makes the inhibition of a free flow of ideas nearly impossible.

But guess which side wants to see information curtailed and the exchange heavily regulated. If you guessed "fundamentalist conservatives", you guessed Right. Pun intended. The folks in Riyadh and Washington are in the same bed there. (And note, please, folks, that a concentration of media ownership among oligopolies is equivalent to restriction of the free flow of ideas. Not everyone is plugged to the internet, yet.)

The suggestion that America is in favor of democracy period is quite laughable. America favors democratic regimes that support its policies - period. If it takes a dictator to get a friendly regime, so be it.

Re: Whatta lot of bloggers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ignore the real world where democracy and freedom is spreading in ways which governments can't possibly control (such as the internet tools).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that part is true! The internet and modern technology makes the inhibition of a free flow of ideas nearly impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it doesn't. Check out North Korea and Myanmar.

Re: F for First Amendment
 

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever hoid . . .

Anything that familiarizes young people with Groucho Marx can't be bad. I would alllow the principle to have the posters removed, but only if he required Duck Soup to be shown in all American History classes.

Re: Whatta lot of bloggers
 

[ QUOTE ]
The suggestion that America is in favor of democracy period is quite laughable. America favors democratic regimes that support its policies - period. If it takes a dictator to get a friendly regime, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly correct.

If Bush and Saddam could have had a BBQ at Camp David and done an oil deal in 1990, we would have been best buddies, It actually could have been so.

Begins at home
 

[ QUOTE ]
--The internet and modern technology makes the inhibition of a free flow of ideas nearly impossible.

--No, it doesn't. Check out North Korea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or South Korea. link

Re: F for First Amendment
 

How's that Kool-Aid taste?

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Didn't the principal get the memo? Free speech is all about a person's right to publicly endorse one ideology over another.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It almost any high school, it's well within the Principle's rights and responsibilities to take actions which maintain a stable learning environment.

[ QUOTE ]
Assaulted from both the Left and the Right, that damn concept of free speech looks a bit wobbly on its legs and ready to fall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Freedom of speech has never been stronger in America or the rest of the world. For basic anecdotal evidence, look at your computer monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for some of the fallout from the J Jackson boob incident as far as some media is concerned. TV and Radio, that is. It's not quite as free as it once was. It's turning into a joke to some degree.

b

Re: F for First Amendment
 

What are you talking about? You have complete freedom of speech on the radio providing you are the CEO of ClearChannel.

Re: F for First Amendment
 

Pffffttt
 

That's nothing by comparison, Cyrus.

In North Korea, citizens don't have access to the internet or even to outside news media. No CNN. No nothing, except North Korean government news.

In Myanmar, owning a modem without government permission is (or was, I read this more than a year or two ago) a capital offense.

Re: Whatta lot of bloggers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The suggestion that America is in favor of democracy period is quite laughable. America favors democratic regimes that support its policies - period. If it takes a dictator to get a friendly regime, so be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly correct.



[/ QUOTE ]

No, it isn't correct.

It may have been correct in decades past, or more likely, was partially correct. Now however the U.S. realizes that the best way to ensure stability in troubled and developing regions throughout the world is democracy. This is a policy shift, or more correctly, greater emphasis, come about due in part to the war on terror. The times they are a changin'.

Re: Whatta lot of bloggers
 

And what democracies have really cracked down on instability?

While the United States is right, most of the Middle East and Africa are nowhere near the point where they can democratize without excessive force to hold it together. They are fractured, factioned socities which were chopped up arbitrarily by Europe. Until a nation's members identify themselves by that group first, democracy will fail.

The United States wants a democracy that agrees with it. While historically democracies have agreed with democracies, the proliferation of that form of government mean that in a world of scarce resources, capitalistic cooperation alone won't stave off conflict. We're already seeing the signs of this with the Oil-for-Food scandal and the European opposition to the Iraq war.

Use a hankie
 

[ QUOTE ]
In North Korea, citizens don't have access to the internet or even to outside news media. No CNN. No nothing, except North Korean government news.

In Myanmar, owning a modem without government permission is (or was, I read this more than a year or two ago) a capital offense.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was not disagreeing.

Mine was not a post about the plight of freedom in autocratic or dictatorial regimes. This was supposed to be a thread about the assault on free speech currently perpetrated in the United States - ostensibly the paladin of those freedoms, "home and abroad".

But this thread is already been hijacked by arguments like "The others are doing worse". Same old, same old.

For every 100 people hacking at the plant of evil only.......
 

......only one person hacks at the roots.

The students still have free speech.
They are completely free to post anti-Bush propaganda outside of school. They can give anti-Bush flyers to fellow students (except doing class time). They can spout ant-Bush rhetoric to their fellow students. The difference is they do NOT have the right to use public property for their personal use without permission from the school.

The last BIG assault on free speech was the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform Law. AKA: Your not allowed to say anything bad about an incumbant politician 60 days before an election. John McCain is an unprincipled idiot. I think his Vietnam POW experience fried his brain.

Re: Use a hankie
 

[ QUOTE ]
But this thread is already been hijacked by arguments like "The others are doing worse". Same old, same old.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering relative performance is the only good way we have of measuring such things, I can't imagine why that might be.

Re: F for First Amendment
 

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I see no violation of this in what the school did.

Re: Use a hankie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In North Korea, citizens don't have access to the internet or even to outside news media. No CNN. No nothing, except North Korean government news.

In Myanmar, owning a modem without government permission is (or was, I read this more than a year or two ago) a capital offense.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was not disagreeing.

Mine was not a post about the plight of freedom in autocratic or dictatorial regimes. This was supposed to be a thread about the assault on free speech currently perpetrated in the United States - ostensibly the paladin of those freedoms, "home and abroad".

But this thread is already been hijacked by arguments like "The others are doing worse". Same old, same old.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because others do worse, doesn't mean that ours can't be better.

b

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about? You have complete freedom of speech on the radio providing you are the CEO of ClearChannel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or a 'beloved' daytime tv talkshow host.

b

Re: Whatta lot of bloggers
 

Umm, can you say baloney.

Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Uzbekistan, Pakistan all good friends getting support, money, munitions. We have warmer words for our dictator friends then for some democratic nations. The current policy is simple, if you agree with us you can be friends if you dont bug off.

Re: Use a hankie
 

Considering relative performance is the only good way we have of measuring such things, I can't imagine why that might be.

I can see different people having different standards for right and wrong. But are you saying that you have no principles and can only measure or argue about things relative to others behaviours? Are you saying that the best we can do is to be just a little bit better than the next nutjob?

Try a little more imagining!

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]

Except for some of the fallout from the J Jackson boob incident as far as some media is concerned. TV and Radio, that is. It's not quite as free as it once was. It's turning into a joke to some degree.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. Are you actually trying to make the assertion that TV and Radio are LESS free than they were 20 years ago?

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Except for some of the fallout from the J Jackson boob incident as far as some media is concerned. TV and Radio, that is. It's not quite as free as it once was. It's turning into a joke to some degree.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. Are you actually trying to make the assertion that TV and Radio are LESS free than they were 20 years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

less free than they were 2 or 3 years ago.

b

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Except for some of the fallout from the J Jackson boob incident as far as some media is concerned. TV and Radio, that is. It's not quite as free as it once was. It's turning into a joke to some degree.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. Are you actually trying to make the assertion that TV and Radio are LESS free than they were 20 years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

less free than they were 2 or 3 years ago.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps if they had been more responsible with the airwaves that belong to you and I, then they wouldn't have had to have been reigned in somewhat.

Re: Use a hankie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Considering relative performance is the only good way we have of measuring such things

[/ QUOTE ]

Historical performance is another good way

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Except for some of the fallout from the J Jackson boob incident as far as some media is concerned. TV and Radio, that is. It's not quite as free as it once was. It's turning into a joke to some degree.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. Are you actually trying to make the assertion that TV and Radio are LESS free than they were 20 years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

less free than they were 2 or 3 years ago.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps if they had been more responsible with the airwaves that belong to you and I, then they wouldn't have had to have been reigned in somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean as opposed to the moronic people who can't seem to find the dial to turn on a tv or radio much less an off switch? Let's put the responsibility where it belongs.

Perhaps if they held everyone in the media to the same guidelines I wouldn't mind it as much. Unfortunately, they don't.

b

Re: F for First Amendment
 

I always wonder why people act like democracy is only politicians doing what the people want. True this is part of the reason for representation, but cant one argue that democracy is also the right of the individual to elect person whom they believe are more qualified to make major decsions on policy and direction then themselves, the comman man. Am I wrong to have faith that there are people smarter, more informed, and quite frankly more quailified to make policy than me? Isn't my check in democracy to get a vote every 2,4 or 6 years upon reviewing the job my offical did. I guess it seems to me that the majority of the people in this country complain about everything, yet a disgusting minority actually take the five minutes to vote. I vote and I exercise my part in democracy to put someone in office to do a job, not always to do what I think is right at the time.

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Except for some of the fallout from the J Jackson boob incident as far as some media is concerned. TV and Radio, that is. It's not quite as free as it once was. It's turning into a joke to some degree.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry. Are you actually trying to make the assertion that TV and Radio are LESS free than they were 20 years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

less free than they were 2 or 3 years ago.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps if they had been more responsible with the airwaves that belong to you and I, then they wouldn't have had to have been reigned in somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean as opposed to the moronic people who can't seem to find the dial to turn on a tv or radio much less an off switch? Let's put the responsibility where it belongs.

Perhaps if they held everyone in the media to the same guidelines I wouldn't mind it as much. Unfortunately, they don't.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that people are oversensative. I believe that political correctness has gone way to far. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that a womans breats should be on display during the most watched program there is. That doesn't mean that we should have curse words coming over the airwaves. If you want to produce "scandlous" programming, fine, however, there is a place for that, its called cable. There is also a time for that, that is NOT primetime.

I think that even NOW we have VERY free airwaves. Hell, CBS is allowed to run lies about our President in an effort to hurt his reelection chances. That's pretty damn free if you ask me.

I just think that the TV execs AND the parents of children need to take responsibility for their actions. TV execs do NOT need to put out vulgar or obscene programming in SPECIFIC time slots, those watched most by children. At the same time, the parents of children need to do their JOB and control what their children are exposed to, should that be their desire.

Honestly, I don't know what you mean about other forms of media. In my mind, the government can control (to SOME minor extent) what goes over the airwaves, because they have the power to do so. The airwaves belong to the people of this country, the government leases them out "for us". As far as print, cable, and internet media, I don't think the government has ANY reasonable control at all over what is produced. The only way they should control it is through laws restricting access to "indecent" content based on age.

Pericles\' time
 

Your whole position is, I'm sorry to say, wrong. In fact, every statement, every sentence you posted up proposes the opposite of what democracy is all about.

I will provide you with the correct objective, the ultimate in democracy, the example from the Athenian era of circa 4th century BC. The idea at the time was that politics was everybody's job; professional politicians was an oxymoron; citizens were supposed to be elected to do the people's bidding and also (extremely important) to be immediately stripped of power if they were found to go against the people's wishes.

Take it from there.

Re: Pericles\' time
 

Too bad America isnt a democracy.

How many times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Too bad America isnt a democracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not bring up the old, inane argument about the "distinction" between republic and democracy! It's old, inane - and false.

And, for the record, both words mean precisely the same thing. One is a Greek word and the other Latin, that's all the difference between them.

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that a womans breats should be on display during the most watched program there is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't mean there should be a huge backlash in the industry because of it either. It's only a breast, big whoop. Major knee jerk overreaction. I missed all the kids running in the streets with blood pouring out of their eyes because of it. Most people missed it until the rewound a tape.

Funny, there's breasts and language on british tv and there's not a big moral overthrow by the children who were exposed to it. There isn't rampant crime or debauchery any more than there is here. This country is so sexually oppressed it's a joke.

[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't mean that we should have curse words coming over the airwaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

What curse words have been coming over the airwaves with regularity? Curse words are a part of life. Words also only have the power you give them. Personally, I see no difference in the meaning if one uses crap or sh*t. Note: I said 'meaning'.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to produce "scandlous" programming, fine, however, there is a place for that, its called cable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cable is restricted also. They can't put racy stuff on during primetime or daytime either.

[ QUOTE ]
There is also a time for that, that is NOT primetime.



[/ QUOTE ]

There's also a knob/button for that, it's an off switch or a channel changer. Yknow, there are adults that like to watch/listen to some adult stuff on primetime/daytime. Whether it be adult situations/language, whatever. Unfortunately, it's only ok if it's disneyfied and sterile.

[ QUOTE ]
I just think that the TV execs AND the parents of children need to take responsibility for their actions. At the same time, the parents of children need to do their JOB and control what their children are exposed to, should that be their desire

[/ QUOTE ]

That should be their(the parents) desire. If it isn't, imo, they have no business raising kids if they're expecting others to do this for them. It's part of parenting.

I'll put it on the parents. They've been let off the hook way too much.

[ QUOTE ]
TV execs do NOT need to put out vulgar or obscene programming in SPECIFIC time slots, those watched most by children

[/ QUOTE ]

There's plenty of adults watching during those times also.

That's what different channels are for isn't it? Why does every channel of the 60+ non premium cable package have to be kid proof?

I don't think time slot, per se, should dictate programming. I think demographic targeting should do that. Why did they come out with the 'V' chip again? Not to mention, when I was a kid, most 'children' were in bed during 'primtime'(8p and later).

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I don't know what you mean about other forms of media.

[/ QUOTE ]

Primarily radio and tv.

b

Re: How many times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Too bad America isnt a democracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not bring up the old, inane argument about the "distinction" between republic and democracy! It's old, inane - and false.

And, for the record, both words mean precisely the same thing. One is a Greek word and the other Latin, that's all the difference between them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am textually accurate [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]

Doesn't mean there should be a huge backlash in the industry because of it either. It's only a breast, big whoop. Major knee jerk overreaction. I missed all the kids running in the streets with blood pouring out of their eyes because of it. Most people missed it until the rewound a tape.

Funny, there's breasts and language on british tv and there's not a big moral overthrow by the children who were exposed to it. There isn't rampant crime or debauchery any more than there is here. This country is so sexually oppressed it's a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of this. I still don't think there has been that much of a backlash. Sure, some people are being more selective about what they air, but thats about it. I agree with the sexual repression stuff. However, just because they do it in England DOES NOT make it right to do it here. We have laws on the books, change should come from there if change needs to be made.

[ QUOTE ]

What curse words have been coming over the airwaves with regularity? Curse words are a part of life. Words also only have the power you give them. Personally, I see no difference in the meaning if one uses crap or sh*t. Note: I said 'meaning'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I agree to some extent. However, I don't think its appropriate for "bitch", "ass", and stuff like that to be aired during primetime. I cuss all the [censored] time, but not around kids.

[ QUOTE ]

Cable is restricted also. They can't put racy stuff on during primetime or daytime either.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cable is a very broad term here. The "base" cable channels do have to adhere to these rules. Some premium channels do as well. However, other premium channels (Playboy et al) are free to program as they wish. That is more of what I was referring to. However, I think its RESPONSIBLE for people like Comedy Central to air the "uncut" versions of movies only LATE at night.

[ QUOTE ]

There's also a knob/button for that, it's an off switch or a channel changer. Yknow, there are adults that like to watch/listen to some adult stuff on primetime/daytime. Whether it be adult situations/language, whatever. Unfortunately, it's only ok if it's disneyfied and sterile.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I understand where you are coming from. I think the premium channels are the place for that though.

[ QUOTE ]

That should be their(the parents) desire. If it isn't, imo, they have no business raising kids if they're expecting others to do this for them. It's part of parenting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%.

[ QUOTE ]

I'll put it on the parents. They've been let off the hook way too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%.

[ QUOTE ]

There's plenty of adults watching during those times also.

That's what different channels are for isn't it? Why does every channel of the 60+ non premium cable package have to be kid proof?

I don't think time slot, per se, should dictate programming. I think demographic targeting should do that. Why did they come out with the 'V' chip again? Not to mention, when I was a kid, most 'children' were in bed during 'primtime'(8p and later).

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I know what you are trying to say, that its the parents responsibility. However, I assure you that many of the execs are parents too. It is their responsibility as parents not to provide their and other children with questionable content during prime time. That's just how I feel about it.

Re: How many times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Too bad America isnt a democracy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please do not bring up the old, inane argument about the "distinction" between republic and democracy! It's old, inane - and false.

And, for the record, both words mean precisely the same thing. One is a Greek word and the other Latin, that's all the difference between them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet, you are wrong, well, actually, you got the roots right, but thats all you got right.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=democracy

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=republic

If you wouldn't have said "that's all the difference between them" I might have given you a pass. Under some definitions of Democracy, Republic is an appropriate synonym. However, under other definitions of these words they are DISTINCTLY different forms of government.

Re: How many times
 

Read what Rep. Ron Paul has to say, about the democracy/republic debate:

The Electoral College vs. Mob Rules

Majority rule is not necessarily a good thing. A simple democracy would imperil an individual's liberties. Think about this. Why did the framers create a lmited republic rather than a direct democracy? Because their was the strong possibility that a majority of the people would vote to reunite with England. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, etc. would have probably ended up swinging for that little thing known as the revolution. So instead the United States was created as a beautiful constitutionally limited republic - although statism, has done it's share of damage.

Re: F for First Amendment
 

[ QUOTE ]
just because they do it in England DOES NOT make it right to do it here. We have laws on the books, change should come from there if change needs to be made.


[/ QUOTE ]

My point was using both US and England as an example, there's no reason to make any changes. England is an example that having nudity and swearing on tv isn't necesarily harmful to kids.

[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't think its appropriate for "bitch", "ass", and stuff like that to be aired during primetime.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're pretty common in usage nowadays. Thinking that 'ass' is risque is really pushing the envelope.

We agree on alot.

However, I don't think the primetime hours should be relegated to kidproofing on every non premium channel. There are channels for kids to watch. Btw...execs aren't providing risque programming for kids to watch. It's not their fault the parents are letting their kids watch it. They're providing it to an audience that is in the target demographic. Again, I blame the parents.

b