Poorly Played?
 

I'm not sure why, but I've been playing some of the worst poker I've played in quite a while. To make matters worse, it's also the longest such period. 3 straight sessions without an "A" game showing up. So take that into consideration here...

A very skilled player (who's only discernable weakness IMO is a propensity to tilt), raised from the cutoff (I believed on tilt). Folded to me in the sb holding Jd,Td. Like I said.. I've been running a little bad and a "B" game is all I've been able to muster these last 3 days. I couldn't bring myself to make it 3 bets out of position. Even though I thought him to be on tilt, this cutoff is skilled... Had position... And is capable of outplaying me on my best day. On the one hand, I didn't want the confrontation. However, I thought my hand too good to fold given the wide mix of hands he might be playing. The bb was not too strong of a player, so I didn't feel the need to get him out. As a matter of fact, I thought it might be better to leave him in there with the type of hand I had. I just called. The bb folded. Heads-up.

The flop came Kc,Qd,8s. I checked, he bet, I (check)/raised, he called.

The turn was an 8d pairing the board, but also giving me a flush draw to go with my up and down str8 draw. I bet, he raised, and I called.

The river was a 4d. I bet, he raised, I called and my flush beat out his A8 for trip eights.

Later that evening, he mentioned he couldn't believe I bet the turn. ??? I know I haven't been able to rise above my "B" game lately, but I need a little re-affirmation here. Would any 20-40 player on this forum NOT consider a follow-through bet on the turn automatic given the action (and description) I provide? It gets tough to think clearly in the midst of a 3 day funk, but I thought this hand (at least post-flop) was somewhat routine. If not, maybe I've found a problem. Thanks in advance.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

You did well.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Hey Kevin, I'm not a 20 40 player, but my post will at least get you back on the top of the board [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I'm not such a big fan of checkraising here unless your opponent will fold ace high in this spot a lot of the time, which I doubt he will. Making that move here is what put you in the bad spot on the turn, IMO. But given that you checkraised the flop I agree it is mandatory to lead the turn and try and pick up the pot, even if you hadn't picked up the diamond draw. If you check you're probably facing a bet almost
%100 of the time here anyway, I think. Also why not reraise the river? I don't think it's likely he's putting you on a diamond draw after your aggression early in the hand.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

I'm not a big fan of the check-raise on the flop. I probably bet out and if I get raised then I'll need to determine to raise again or call. Raising again can be a deceptive play, in that if you hit your straight he may give you some pretty good action, not thinking you would have 3-bet on a draw. But a lot of people would check-raise the flop in that situation so it's clearly not a mistake.

Everything else seemed fine, especially betting out on the turn. I think it's almost an automatic bet in that spot.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

I think a follow up bet is a must. I think the hand was played fine.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

I would have considered checkraising the turn to represent the 8 with all those outs.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

"Also why not reraise the river? I don't think it's likely he's putting you on a diamond draw after your aggression early in the hand."

Kevin really can't threebet the river because of the chance his opponent has KK or QQ for a full house. Also he might have an ace-high flush.

I don't understand why the opponent told Kevin "I can't believe you bet the turn". Maybe the opponent mistakenly believed that he had three-bet the flop. Checkraising the flop and betting out the turn against a preflop raiser is a standard play.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

I would be inclined to do this if I were three-bet on the flop. As M.B.E. pointed, it's standard to bet out after the flop check-raise. If three-bet on the flop, though, one can check-raise with fifteen outs when an innocuous card like the 4 comes on the turn. Even if you get three-bet on the turn, you can check-fold the river, as opposed to betting out when you miss. While the river is usually an automatic bet when one check-raises the turn, how many would check fold the river if a blank comes against this particular opponent, in light of the flop and turn play? Or, would the size of the pot mandate a bet in case he held the same hand, which, feasibly could be played the same way?

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Preflop, I don't consider three betting to be that much better than coldcalling. I would often 3 bet but I would also often just coldcall. The thing here is that given the initial raiser's position and current disposition, this hand is not going to be over with early. Neither of you should fold on the flop regradless of whether you 3 bet or coldcall preflop. The two of you will generally see at least the turn card, if not the river.

One of the great values of 3 betting preflop is to allow you to steal on the flop or on the turn. Here, that value is somewhat negated by the situation i.e. you know he is on tilt and therefore, you will not fold on the flop. As for him, he is on tilt and might even know that you know that he is on tilt and therefore he too will not fold on the flop.

Put in an extra bet on the flop if you want. 3 bets preflop and 1 bet on the flop is the same as 2 bets preflop and 2 bets on the flop. In certain circumstances, you will be in better position on the turn having 3 bet preflop. In other circumstances (like this one), you are better off on the turn by showing aggression on the flop rather than preflop.

There is value in 3 betting preflop iin order to get it heads-up i.e., knock out the bb. But you will be out of position against a tilter who is probably going to play the flop hard - whether or not it helped him- and it's pretty easy for you to throw in the towel with Jack high. But if you checkraise the flop when it comes down, say Q54 or something, his level of concern will be greater than what it would have been had you 3 bet preflop (part of this is because he will assume that your 3 bet represents an Ace high unpaired hand a vast majority of the time).

Sorry for the rambling post. Too lazy to reorganize it.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

The problem with that is that you might miss out on the opportunity to take the pot right there. He might call you on the river with Ace high having put you on a busted straight draw (assuming a river blank). Plus, he might just have a king which he ain't folding and you are now putting in two bets on the turn when you only have 15 outs. Granted, that's a lot of outs but you are still an underdog to a King or any one pair hand (like Qx) that he is not folding.

In general, I find that it does not pay to get overly aggressive on the turn in heads-up situations (particularly when you give up position). Turn raises are best reserved for multiway pots.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Sorry for the rambling post. Too lazy to reorganize it.

I don't think this is ramble at all. In fact, you eloquently put into words exactly what goes through my mind at times. You know... When you're worried that an aggressive opponent is thinking what you're thinking he's thinking... Sometimes it's easier to wrestle control by actually playing meeker on an earlier street than you otherwise might. I THINK this is what you're saying... [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Poorly Played?
 

IMO, you should've check-raised on the turn. No one ever believes you when you check-raise the flop, especially with two broadway cards and two of a suit on the flop. Check-raising on the turn has much higher probability of making your opponent fold. Plus, if your opponent gives you a free card on the turn then you've already outplayed him. You don't have s**t for a hand (except for a big draw) and a free card gives you another opportunity to bluff your opponent on the river.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

I'm not such a big fan of checkraising here unless your opponent will fold ace high in this spot a lot of the time, which I doubt he will.

I agree and also doubt he'd fold ace-high. But I got a hand that's going to the river regardless, and check/raising the flop might convince him to fold some of his worse hands on the turn. IMO-

Re: Poorly Played?
 

I agree that betting out is also an option and that 3-betting (if raised) can be a deceptive and profitable way to play it. But like I pointed out in my post... This guy was skilled and aggressive. If I'm wrong, and/or miss my draw, it was sure to get expensive. I was getting tortured for most of the session and was in no mood to go to war with this guy. I actually thought check/raising might've been the least expensive way to play it. Also, I like to mix it up. Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Gee, I think I pretty much totally disagree with you here. I think the bad guy would be hard pressed to call a turn check-raise and a river bet with any queen or pocket pair. Even if you do get busted trying a semi-bluff check raise, it doesn't really cost you that much. Assuming you are lucky enough to pick up a real hand, you will get paid more often on later hands. You will also get more free cards on later hands.

I think playing passively and trying to suck out is also an OK way to play the hand. You just have to go with your read. But if you are going to put on a move on the guy then you might as well play it like you mean it.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Actually, I don't think we disagree as much as it might seem. All I am saying is that routinely planning to checkraise on the turn when you flop a straight draw should not be your default play. I think you'll agree with that.

On this hand, Kevin had checkraised the flop and the other guy called. Kevin then picks up a flush draw to go with his straight draw but the board pairs. Trying for another checkraise here is not very good IMO because the guy might just check back and then call you with Ace high on the river i.e. checking the turn may deprive you of the opportunity to see him fold. I appreciate what you said elsewhere about how having the action checked through can be a boon because Kevin has nothing for a hand. But that's only half the story. In most situations, Kevin has the playing advantage on the turn given the flop action. Checking is bad not because you can give a free card in the traditional sense but because you take the foot off the gas when you have an opportunity to take the pot with a simple bet.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

In a heads up situation like this, I think you have to make an attempt to win the pot on the turn. I would have played it as you did, and as someone else said, I suppose you could have check raised if you felt he was weak and that he would bet. Considering he is steaming its quite possible he raises from cutoff with any ace, and you need to be able to fold that hand if he missed the flop.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Oh right. Given that you check-raise the flop you should lead on the turn. I agree. I was coming at it from the angle of either check-raising on flop or check-raising on the turn.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Boris-

Just for the heck of it.. Let's assume I DID check/raise the turn, and he now makes it $120 with his trip eights. How do you proceed from here? Fold??!! (I know those who would given the paired board and drawing heads-up)... Call and then check the river? Or, Call and then bet the river? (and then call if raised again?)

Re: Poorly Played?
 

Kevin,

I know you are a very good player. I also have read all the responses here so my response may, but I don't think so, be a bit tainted. I wil probably get flamed but here is my opinion.

Pre-Flop - Definitely call - Given the way you describe this player, I cannot possibly fathom why you would want to three-bet pre-flop and attempt to isolate heads up with the worst position at the table and a hand of J high - I guess I would ask myself what he is raising with that my J high hand is worthy of three-betting with - but that is just me.

Flop - Bet and call if raised - again personally I do not like check-raising a player who you describe "capable of outplaying me on my best day" with a hand of J high and most likely 8 clean outs.

Turn - Either betting, checkraising, or check calling are all viable option depending on your read.

River - Depends on your turn play If you bet the turn, I would checkraise the river. If you check/call the turn, I would bet, then three bet the river when raised. If you checkraise the turn and then get re-raised, I would again check-raise the river and 4 bet if he three bets me. If I am gonna draw to the hand heads up, then I sure as heck am not going to slow down when I get there.

Given the entire situation you describe, I have some concern with being overagressive or what I would term as seriously overplaying with nothing more than a drawing hand - especially without position - and against what you describe as a solid player (granted who may or may not be on tilt).
From my experience, very few solid players - tilted or not -who have raised pre-flop - are going to fold a hand with a board with two face cards on it.

From the responses, it sounds like I am in the minority and that I would be the only here who did not just keep on raising and raising and then check-raising until I got there. Maybe I am missing something.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

PS - I figure I had better cover this before I get flamed by those of you are thinking I am weak passive as a player because of the way I describe my thinking regarding this hand. While it is definitely possible I am weak/passive as a player, I really do not believe this is the case.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

yea, in this particular hand the guy had a monster so check-raising on the turn would've been a minor disaster. But that's life. sometimes you step in the doggy doo.

No way do I fold to a 3 bet. I definitely payoff if I make a flush or a str8.

Re: Poorly Played?
 

I think your only problem is considering someone who needs to hit his draws to win the pot headsup a "highly skilled player". If you plan on winning a pot against one of my draws, you'd better come with a hand or make a good call. I think you played fine. If you regulary check call the flop/check raise the turn in this situation with your good hands, you might try to play your flush draws the same way against players who regularly bet the turn with less than to pair in this situation or who are capable of a big laydown. What's one more big bet if it might allow you to win the pot a decent percentage of the time without hitting your draw?