More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

...and that they're genetically inferior, etc. etc.

At least, that's how Cyrus and ACPlayer will read this post.

Jeff Jacoby

IT WAS front-page news this week when Newsweek retracted a report claiming that a US interrogator in Guantanamo had flushed a copy of the Koran down a toilet. Everywhere it was noted that Newsweek's story had sparked widespread Muslim rioting, in which at least 17 people were killed. But there was no mention of deadly protests triggered in recent years by comparable acts of desecration against other religions.

No one recalled, for example, that American Catholics lashed out in violent rampages in 1989, after photographer Andres Serrano's ''Piss Christ" -- a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine -- was included in an exhibition subsidized by the National Endowment for the Arts. Or that they rioted in 1992 when singer Sinead O'Connor, appearing on ''Saturday Night Live," ripped up a photograph of Pope John Paul II.

There was no reminder that Jewish communities erupted in lethal violence in 2000, after Arabs demolished Joseph's Tomb, torching the ancient shrine and murdering a young rabbi who tried to save a Torah. And nobody noted that Buddhists went on a killing spree in 2001 in response to the destruction of two priceless, 1,500-year-old statues of Buddha by the Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Of course, there was a good reason all these bloody protests went unremembered in the coverage of the Newsweek affair: They never occurred.

Christians, Jews, and Buddhists don't lash out in homicidal rage when their religion is insulted. They don't call for holy war and riot in the streets. It would be unthinkable for a mainstream priest, rabbi, or lama to demand that a blasphemer be slain. But when Reuters reported what Mohammad Hanif, the imam of a Muslim seminary in Pakistan, said about the alleged Koran-flushers -- ''They should be hung. They should be killed in public so that no one can dare to insult Islam and its sacred symbols" -- was any reader surprised?

The Muslim riots should have been met by outrage and condemnation. From every part of the civilized world should have come denunciations of those who would react to the supposed destruction of a book with brutal threats and the slaughter of 17 innocent people. But the chorus of condemnation was directed not at the killers and the fanatics who incited them, but at Newsweek.

From the White House down, the magazine was slammed -- for running an item it should have known might prove incendiary, for relying on a shaky source, for its animus toward the military and the war. Over and over, Newsweek was blamed for the riots' death toll. Conservative pundits in particular piled on. ''Newsweek lied, people died" was the headline on Michelle Malkin's popular website. At NationalReview.com, Paul Marshall of Freedom House fumed: ''What planet do these [Newsweek] people live on? . . . Anybody with a little knowledge could have told them it was likely that people would die as a result of the article." All of Marshall's choler was reserved for Newsweek; he had no criticism at all for the marauders in the Muslim street.

Then there was Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who announced at a Senate hearing that she had a message for ''Muslims in America and throughout the world." And what was that message? That decent people do not resort to murder just because someone has offended their religious sensibilities? That the primitive bloodlust raging in Afghanistan and Pakistan was evidence of the Muslim world's dysfunctional political culture?

No: Her message was that ''disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States."

Granted, Rice spoke while the rioting was still taking place and her goal was to reduce the anti-American fever. But what ''Muslims in America and throughout the world" most need to hear is not pandering sweet-talk. What they need is a blunt reminder that the real desecration of Islam is not what some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency" in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work. It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and exhortations to ''martyrdom."

But what disgraces Islam above all is the vast majority of the planet's Muslims saying nothing and doing nothing about the jihadist cancer eating away at their religion. It is Free Muslims Against Terrorism, a pro-democracy organization, calling on Muslims and Middle Easterners to ''converge on our nation's capital for a rally against terrorism" -- and having only 50 people show up.

Yes, Islam is disrespected. That will only change when throngs of passionate Muslims show up for rallies against terrorism, and when rabble-rousers trying to gin up a riot over a defiled Koran can't get the time of day.

The Truth Hurts
 

Well, I may as well throw another log on the fire.

The article below is a bit over-the-top in tone and suchlike, and therefore perhaps distasteful in some ways, but it still makes some valid and important points.


"By Don Feder
Posted March 12, 2005

Pat Robertson has done it again – gone and told the truth about Islam. How hateful! How hurtful! How – honest.

Interviewed on ABC’s “This Week with George Stephanopoulos,” on May 2nd , Robertson said that if he was elected president, he would not appoint a Muslim to his cabinet or favor the appointment of Muslim judges.”

What, no Muslim attorney general? I can’t believe it! Think of all the people convicted of mail fraud who’ll be walking around with both of their hands.

Pat explained: “They have said in the Koran there’s a war against all the infidels. Do you want somebody like that sitting as a judge?”

“Hate-filled remarks,” shrieked the DC-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). “He’s trying to perpetuate this notion that Islam is a monolithic entity inherently at odds with democracy,” sputtered Arsalan Iftikhar, CAIR’s national legal director. “That is absolutely false. …American Muslims have long been contributing members of American society.”

Many and varied are Muslim contributions to American society, like the holy warriors who recently set off a series of small explosions outside the British consulate in New York City.

· Like two Muslim community leaders in Albany, New York, who tried to buy a shoulder-launched missile to take out the Pakistani ambassador last year.

· Like now imprisoned Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman, who tried to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993.

· Like former University of South Florida Professor Sami Al-Arian, who, over the years, has told American Muslim audiences: “Jihad is our path. Victory for Islam. Death to Israel. Revolution until victory.” Al-Arian is facing a federal charge that he raised money for a Middle East terrorist group.

· Like the Muslim who murdered Rabbi Meir Kahane in New York City in 1990.

· Like the Egyptian immigrant who shot up the El Al counter at LAX in 2002 (killing 2).

· Like Muslim Rashid Baz, who opened fire on a van of Hassidic kids on the Brooklyn Bridge in 1994 (one dead).

· Like The Beltway Snipers.

· Like American Taliban John Walker Lindh, who betrayed his country and fought for the 9-11 killers in Afghanistan.

· Like Army Sgt. Hasan Akbar, who killed two of his comrades in a grenade attack in the opening days of the Iraq war.

· Or, like Randall Todd (Ismail) Royer, formerly a staffer in CAIR’s national headquarters, who – in April 2004 – pleaded guilty to conspiring to train Americans for jihad. CAIR, by the way, is an offshoot of the Islamic Association for Palestine (another Muslim civil rights group) fingered as a Hamas front by two former FBI heads.

If overpopulation was a problem in the U.S., more American Muslims would be the solution. But there I go again, being hateful and hurtful.

Tell me, Arsalan, old boy, exactly how many democracies are there in the Islamic world? (Hint, you don’t need a calculator to do the math.) If self-government takes root in Iraq, it will be the one and only genuine democracy in a nation with a Muslim majority. Nevertheless, the Prophet’s advance men assure us that the religion of holy war is entirely compatible with democracy and pluralism.

Even Iraq is looking doubtful. An April poll of Iraqis showed 74% believe Islam should be the main source of the nation’s laws. Hey, it’s worked for Iran.

Useful idiots on the left joined their Muslim handlers in denouncing the CBN head. Robertson’s remarks were “irresponsible, extreme and hurtful,” pronounced the “Rev.” Jim Wallis, of the lefty Sojourners (God is an environmentalist, feminist, peacenik) Magazine.

Have you noticed how Islam has become the left’s favorite religion? It figures. The Left hates America, Israel and Christians. So do the jihadists. My enemy’s enemy, as the saying goes.

“Inflammatory statements (like Robertson’s) only go towards burning the bridges, not building them,” Iftikhar advised. Isn’t it nice the way Muslim mouthpieces have learned lib-speak, the better to appeal to Starbucks multiculturalists?

Is Pat into bridge-burning? Well, what can you expect from a fundamentalist Christian? Like comedian Jackie Mason, who was savaged last summer for observing on a nationally syndicated radio show, “the whole Muslim religion” is a “murderous organization” that instructs its followers in hate, terrorism and murder.” (Mason is guilty of an “Islamophobic smear,” wailed CAIR.)

Or, what about the Southern Baptist who led Britain in World War II.? Winston Spencer Churchill observed Islam “above all other (religions) was founded and propagated by the sword” and that it provided “incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticism.” Why , Winnie, you old Islamophobe, you!

Yes, my friends, disciples of the religion of peace are into building bridges. And the first church in Saudi Arabia is opening when?

On April 21st, the Saudi religious police (known as the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice”), scooped up a criminal gang in a raid on a Riyadh apartment. The desperate and dangerous felons (40 Pakistani men, women and children) were listening to Christian sermons on tape and praying in the name of Jesus. All of which are hanging offenses in the most Muslim nation on Earth.

A Saudi police source was quoted as saying, “These people tried to spread the poison (i.e., Christianity) and their beliefs to others, by means of distributing pamphlets and (missionary) publications.” The villains!

OK, but that’s just those weird bed-sheeted fanatics in Saudi Arabia, Islamic apologists will respond.

Closer to home, in late January the well-respected Freedom House (in no way connected to Robertson’s Regent University) issued a report on the bridge-building blueprints found in a number of American mosques.

A random survey of a dozen mosques in six states and DC (undertaken by Arabic speakers) found 57 documents promoting hatred of Christians and Jews, as well as explaining the imperative to subvert the United States and other Western societies. An article in The Wall Street Journal reported: “The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam.”

Two of those converts – John Allen Muhammed and Lee Malvo – affectionately known as the Beltway snipers – were convicted of the cold-blooded murders of 10 Americans in 2002. Apparently, someone forgot to tell them that Muslims love infidels and Islam is entirely compatible with democracy and pluralism.

Did you know that many of the 1,200 mosques in the United States are Saudi subsidized? According to a March 11, 2003 report in the St. Petersburg Times, 27% of all American mosques are owned by the Islamic Society of North America, which in turn is a subsidiary of the North American Islamic Trust, which itself is heavily funded by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Is it a mere coincidence that wherever Muslims settle in significant numbers – or Islam spreads – the death toll mounts?

Take Nigeria. The nation is divided between Muslims in the north and 66 million Christians in the south. A third of Nigeria’s 36 states have adopted Sharia (Islamic law) – with the loping off of limbs, floggings and executions for adultery and “slandering” the Prophet.

Naturally, Nigerian bridge-builders are hot to impose this enlightened system – including inferior legal status for non-Muslims -- on unbelievers. Armed gangs have taken to attacking Christian villages. In one such assault, carried out by 400 heavily armed jihadists on the village of Yelwa, 80 percent of the homes were destroyed.

No one knows how many bodies are buried in Yelwa’s mass graves. Abel Gobum, a pastor, showed a camera crew the graves, pointing to one that holds villagers slaughtered in a church. Among them were 20 children, hacked to death with machetes and swords.

In his 1996 book, “The Clash of Civilizations And Remaking of World Order,” historian Samuel Huntington speaks of “Islam’s bloody borders,” meaning that wherever Islam comes in contact with another faith (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism) conflict ensues – spanning the spectrum from discrimination to genocide.

Israel, the Sudan, Nigeria, the Balkans, the Indian subcontinent, Indonesia and the Philippines. What do they all have in common? Either a Muslim majority is making life miserable for infidels, or Muslims seek to dominate non-Muslims by agitation, subversion and warfare.

When realists like Robertson note the obvious, the response of Muslim spokesmen and apologists is: Violent Muslims are a distinct minority who have somehow, inexplicably, misinterpreted their religion of peace (hence terms like “Muslim extremists,” “radical Islam,” “political Islam,” and “Islamocists”).

Exaggeration is another favorite tactic of the jihad cheerleaders. Again, the “Rev.” Wallis asserts that Pat Robertson claims “all Muslims want to kill us,” and such libels hurts moderates while strengthening the hand of Muslim extremists.

In reality, there’s no one – including Robertson – who thinks that all 1 billion Muslims in the world want to kill the rest of us. (Why, it’s probably no more than a few hundred million.) Clearly, there are many Muslims who – like most people everywhere – want to live peacefully with their neighbors.

There are Muslims who have reinterpreted their religion to make it compatible with things like majority rule and human rights (not to mention indoor-plumbing). But such concepts are alien to Islam. The overwhelming majority of those who understand the religion best (including mullahs, imams and the scholars of Cairo’s al-Hazar University) – those who study and live it – aren’t exactly Arabic-speaking Quakers.

That’s why it’s so absurd for dogmatic optimists to proclaim that Hamas, Hezbollah, bin Laden, the Iranian mullacracy, Saudi Wahabists, Lebanese Shiites, and Iraqi Sunnis detonating car bombs in Baghdad, somehow got it wrong, but they (Westerners who’ve read the Koran Cliff Notes) intuitively understand the essence of a religion they neither study, practice nor believe.

Robertson’s right.

That structure Islamic activists are building isn’t a peace-bridge to the 21st. century, but a highway to Hell."

http://www.donfeder.com/index.html

Re: More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

It must be nice to be able to write articles while ignoring facts.

Jacoby is pure bigotry as pointed our eloquently and clearly here.

Gamblor and 6M continue to show their racism with these two posts.


and that they're genetically inferior, etc. etc

At least, that's how Cyrus and ACPlayer will read this post.


I dont know where you got that I would think the muslims as genetically inferior. I do know that your thinking is tainted by your emotion of hatred -- i dont even think that YOU are genetically inferior.

Try Thinking Instead Of Reacting
 

Obviously, Gamblor was being satirical with his introductory remarks.

ACPlayer, you need to understand that criticizing culture or philosophy or religion is NOT the same as criticizing race.

Ideas and customs NEED to be criticized whenever they are harmful or wrong.

Get with the program and critically analyze things. That a billion people might believe something, anything--does not in any way validate those beliefs.

Re: More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

Bigotry comes in many forms. The links offered are those of bigots. Those offering them are at least suspect.

Get with the program and critically analyze things.

I do. You dont. Period. It has been demonstrated in thread after thread after thread.

Your postings on tis subject are coloured by way too much emotion - mostly fear and hatred-- fed by propoganda from the likes of MEMRI. Not conducive to clear thinking.

Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

Based on the ACTIONS and INACTIONS of its 'pious and righteous' followers, I see nothing to respect from Islam. If the 'pious and rightious' followers of Islam approve of flying planes into buildings and murdering people, I'd sure hate to meet the less pious of their religion. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Bush43 has been going out of his way to talk about the great and noble religion of Islam but he is not very convincing.
Who are you going to believe? Him? or your lying eyes?

Even though I'm an atheist, I do respect most religions.
My highest respect goes to the Later Day Saints(Mormans). In my life experience, I have found that Mormans walk-the-walk and talk-the-talk better then any other pious products of other religions. When they knock on my door and two 21yr old Morman name 'Elder Jones' and 'Elder Smith', I make time for them even though their chance of converting me is about equal to Osama Bin Laden becoming a Christian.

Re: More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bigotry comes in many forms. The links offered are those of bigots. Those offering them are at least suspect.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Based on the ACTIONS and INACTIONS of its 'pious and righteous' followers, I see nothing to respect from Islam. If the 'pious and rightious' followers of Islam approve of flying planes into buildings and murdering people, I'd sure hate to meet the less pious of their religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of Muslims don't believe the fanatics are pious.

Muslims around the world have spoken out against the fanatics who are bastardizing their religion. Is it a surprise that this isn't carried in the news? (To be fair, I read numerous articles about various muslim leaders denouncing Muslim Terrorists. But you have to read about it. They don't do a lot of stories about that on Dateline.)

[ QUOTE ]
Bush43 has been going out of his way to talk about the great and noble religion of Islam but he is not very convincing.
Who are you going to believe? Him? or your lying eyes?


[/ QUOTE ]

There are billions of Muslims. The fanatical terrorists, who even if they numbered in the millions, would still be a tiny minority of all people who claim to be Muslim. It would be like saying the Christians that murder abortion doctors or the Catholics who bomb Protestants in Ireland represented all Christians.

[ QUOTE ]
Even though I'm an atheist, I do respect most religions.
My highest respect goes to the Later Day Saints(Mormans).

[/ QUOTE ]

You should read "Under the Banner of Heaven." It might change your mind. (and let me start by saying, the book doesn't put all Mormons under a bad light... but you should read how some of them walk the walk. Its got murder, incest, women in slavery, abuse, corruption... Its a mindblower.

The only follow-up question imaginable
 

Jacoby clearly and wrongly interchanges Muslim and Arab IMO.

So the real question is:

1.2 billion muslims hunting a few outlaw fanatics can't be a difficult chore.

If a vast majority of Middle East Muslims have properly demanded the arrest of all terrorists and denounced terrorist actions and are willing to aid anyone in apprehending these "fanatics", why are they still free?

More importantly, why haven't I heard about this manhunt? I read the news.

Is the news trying to hide the moderate muslims?

no. because only when we head west do the moderates really appear. In the middle east, there is virtually no moderation in Islam.

Now don't get me wrong. I've been to Jordan and Egypt and for the most part, nobody gives a [censored] about politics. but its still muslims-first.

Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

If you guys want to see REAL bigotry, look at the Muslim world. There you will find, glaringly, the most blatant forms of bigotry anywhere on Earth (and it is against non-Muslims and against women).

Are you guys really concerned about bigotry, or do you just want to defend your sides of an argument? If you're REALLY concerned about bigotry, your attention shoukd be directed to where the problem is biggest (by far).

One other thing: criticizing bigotry--or criticizing bigoted religious-political systems--is not itself bigotry--it's just the only decent thing to do.

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

"The majority of Muslims don't believe the fanatics are pious."
************************************************** **
The fanatics are considered the cream of the Islamic crop. The Wahabi religious schools teach muslims to be extreme and ruthless of muslims who are not pure of faith. The Wahabi schools main produce religious fanatics in the same way Henry Ford produced Model Ts.


"There are billions of Muslims. The fanatical terrorists, who even if they numbered in the millions, would still be a tiny minority of all people who claim to be Muslim."
************************************************** *
Luckily for the rest of the world, most of the fanatics muslims do not have the economic means to carry out the homicidal desires. Your average Egyptian fanatic can't even buy a cup of Starbuck's coffee. Saying, "see the Eqyptian man (who can't afford a plastic knife) is not killing non muslims is not proof he is peaceful. It only proves that he lacks the financial resources to carry out murders.
BBC polls of the muslim world show that muslims do not like the USA and that there is a prevaling attitude that the USA deserved 9/11. Another reason why I have no respect for the muslim world.


"It would be like saying the Christians that murder abortion doctors or the Catholics who bomb Protestants in Ireland represented all Christians."
**************************************************
No it is not.
The homicidal muslims though small in number are supported financially throughout the muslim world. In addition, the MAJORITY of Wahabi Imans preach death to infidels. So when was the last time a Catholic Priest or Protestant Minister preached to kill abortion doctors? Your analogy fails.


There is a small number of muslims who are sicken by the homicidal acts of the Wahabists but they are too small in number and too afraid to speak out. For them remaining silent is probably the wisest choice since their fellow muslims from Wahabi schools are taught to murder them.

Re: The only follow-up question imaginable
 

[ QUOTE ]
1.2 billion muslims hunting a few outlaw fanatics can't be a difficult chore.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of million does not equal a "few".

Furthermore, they're not all together. Should all of the millions of US Muslims be scouting the world for the fanatics? What you say makes no sense.

Should all the Catholics in the world be tracking down the IRA? What's the problem with the Catholics? They can't track down a few bad apples?

[ QUOTE ]
More importantly, why haven't I heard about this manhunt? I read the news.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is the same news that reports more about Michael Jackson and Pitt/Jolie then what's going on in the world. And you're looking for stories about something that may be happening in India?


[ QUOTE ]
Is the news trying to hide the moderate muslims?


[/ QUOTE ]
Why would moderate Muslims be in the news? You don't see stories about moderates anywhere... that's not news.

[ QUOTE ]
no. because only when we head west do the moderates really appear. In the middle east, there is virtually no moderation in Islam.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there was a story (I believe on 60 minutes) about a Muslim nation where the youth were pushing against the Muslim government. Women are pushing for jobs, to be able to dance, to show their faces, to bring in western culture, etc. But this was an exception... this just isn't as exciting news as stories about celebrities on trial and what comedian is in rehab in South Africa.

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The majority of Muslims don't believe the fanatics are pious

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just wrong on this. Also, the more learned scholar-type Muslims tend to be among the more fanatical in outlook. As evidence, try sampling the preachings of a number of imams;-) Seriously, the religious texts support an extremist view, and the studied clergy is generally quite immoderate in outlook.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you guys want to see REAL bigotry, look at the Muslim world. There you will find, glaringly, the most blatant forms of bigotry anywhere on Earth (and it is against non-Muslims and against women).


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being too black and white. I think many Muslim nations cultures are completely bigotted. The problem is that you only hear news about the fanatics. There is 1.2 billion Muslims spread throughout the world who do not fit into this picture. Hell, I work with several Muslims.

The people arguing are not denying that there ARE Muslims who are fanatics and bigots. No one is defending them. They are defending the majority of Muslims (and their faith) who ALSO think the others are fanatics and bigots.

On a side note: I don't believe there is a religion out there that isn't bigotted. Christians (and even subsets of Christianity) all believe they are right, everyone else is wrong and they're going to hell. The Christians think the Jews are foolish. The Jews think they're the chosen people. Muslims think they have it right. Its the nature of religion to teach people to be intolerant of the faith of others.

I have also read that there is a growing section of evangelical Christians who believe America has gone down the wrong path; it should be a Christian nation and, with that, they mean women should be at home and the man is the ruler. And if a woman cheats or you a man is found to be gay, they should be stoned to death. (I don't pretend this is a majority,... neither are fanatical Muslims.)

Fundamental (non LDS) Mormons believe it is correct to steal from Christians, because Christians are the Devil's servants. (see the book, the Banner of Heaven)

My wife's friend's sister converted to... what the heck is that religion... I want to say Mormon but I don't think it is... she is not allowed to work, she is required to wait on her husband hand and foot. It is completely misogynist. And it is practiced in America.

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fanatics are considered the cream of the Islamic crop.

[/ QUOTE ]
By themselves maybe. Moderates (ie, the majority) think (and have written and spoken extensively about this) believe they AREN'T correctly following the tenets of their faith.

I work with Muslims. They have very little in common with the terrorists.

[ QUOTE ]
The Wahabi religious schools teach muslims to be extreme and ruthless of muslims who are not pure of faith. The Wahabi schools main produce religious fanatics in the same way Henry Ford produced Model Ts.


[/ QUOTE ]

So... I'll list all the countries with significant Muslim populations. Let me know what percentage of each country is fanatics:
There are more than 1 billion Muslims worldwide, fewer than one fifth of whom are Arab. Islam is the principal religion of much of Asia, including Indonesia (which has the world's largest Muslim population), Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, the Arabian Peninsula states, and Turkey. India also has one of the world's largest Muslim populations, although Islam is not the principal religion there. In Africa, Islam is the principal religion in Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, Djibouti, Gambia, Guinea, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Senegal, Somalia, and Sudan, with sizable populations also in Chad, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Tanzania (where the island of Zanzibar is predominantly Muslim), and Nigeria.

In Europe, Albania is predominantly Muslim, and, historically, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Macedonia, and Georgia have had Muslim populations. Elsewhere in Europe, immigrant communities of Muslims from N Africa, Turkey, and Asia exist in France, Germany, and Great Britain. In the Americas the Islamic population has substantially increased in recent years, both from conversions and the immigration of adherents from other parts of the world. In the United States, the number of Muslims has been variably estimated at 2-6 million; 20% of the population of Suriname is Muslim

[ QUOTE ]
Luckily for the rest of the world, most of the fanatics muslims do not have the economic means to carry out the homicidal desires. Your average Egyptian fanatic can't even buy a cup of Starbuck's coffee. Saying, "see the Eqyptian man (who can't afford a plastic knife) is not killing non muslims is not proof he is peaceful. It only proves that he lacks the financial resources to carry out murders.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are a little bigot, aren't you. I see, a Muslim who hasn't killed someone just is too poor to do so. Oddly enough, I've heard people make similar statements about blacks.

[ QUOTE ]
BBC polls of the muslim world show that muslims do not like the USA and that there is a prevaling attitude that the USA deserved 9/11. Another reason why I have no respect for the muslim world.


[/ QUOTE ]
two things
(1) I really doubt the BBC polled the Muslim world. It would take years.
(2) There are many reasons for many Muslim nations to hate the US. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with their religion.

Reminds me of the many neocons who talked about nuking France on the Yahoo Politics board. Perhaps the US does a lot of things to make people in different nations hate them? Oddly enough, since Bush has been in office, that number has grown. Maybe they've all been converted to Islam?

[ QUOTE ]
No it is not.
The homicidal muslims though small in number are supported financially throughout the muslim world.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see... you are randomly say that the MAJORITY of Muslims are supporting them? They are supported by fellow extremists. Just because they aren't a majority doesn't mean they don't have a lot of resources.

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, the MAJORITY of Wahabi Imans preach death to infidels.

[/ QUOTE ] Of the 1.2 billion Muslims... how many of them follow this sect? On another note, the Pope preaches that one cannot use condoms or have premarital sex. The number of Catholics I've met that followed this: 1.

[ QUOTE ]
So when was the last time a Catholic Priest or Protestant Minister preached to kill abortion doctors?

[/ QUOTE ]
As I recall, the guy who shot abortion doctors was part of an organized church group and he was supported and rallied behind by his church.

[ QUOTE ]
Your analogy fails.


[/ QUOTE ]
No it didn't. The anology was to show you why a group is not necessarily represented by the actions of a minority. Something like 90% of all murders are committed by men. Yet, the majority of men do not commit murder. Does this mean that we should judge ALL men by the minority of men who commit these heinous acts? If we followed your logic, we should.

[ QUOTE ]
There is a small number of muslims who are sicken by the homicidal acts of the Wahabists but they are too small in number and too afraid to speak out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would ask you to supply numbers but you're so clearing just stereotyping and making up your own information.

Though I Walk Through The Valley
 

[ QUOTE ]
My highest respect goes to the Later Day Saints (the Morm<font color="red">a</font>ns).

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh God. Oh God. I'm trying my best to resist the temptation to comment on that !

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

Are you really, seriously, this [censored] stupid?

I'm no friend of organized religion, but talking about "muslims" as a monolithic entity is about as usefully as talking about "colors" as a singular adjective.

As someone who reads and writes arabic, as well as the national language of the nation containing the single largest population of "muslims" in the world, I can safely say you are [censored] stupid, talking out of your ass, entirely uninformed and thoroughly laughable. To anyone with a modicum of education or experience, you are a [censored] joke.


You are parroting something you heard misquoted from Bernard Lewis (the moron) on Faux News (oh heavens-to-Betsy, love that accuracy in reporting) and trying to claim it as insight. You are a [censored] joke. I don't know why I get frusterated at assholes like you. Actually, I do. Most Americans are woefully blind to the world around them. They don't even care. Sure, they hate A-RABS, and other Musselmens, but they don't claim to have any understanding of the world around them---[censored], they don't even know whats happening in their county, let alone their state.

Its shits like you with access to more information who insist on maintaining a mind-numbingly myopic stance that really brings out the homicidal urge in the smarter/better of us.

Oh well. Hopefully something horrible happens to you.

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

Hey Kurto,
How about some examples of the "moderate" muslims you say you read about. Any links or articles we can all see ??

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

Do some research. Why don't you search for Islam and read some writings from some organizations.

Where do you work? I work in NYC and work with, go out to dinner with/party with Muslims.

The web is FILLED with information about it.

Watch something besides Fox.

Sheesh.

There's 1.2 BILLION Muslims. The closeminded ignorance of the bigots is so tiring and sad.

You know... all the bigotted morons who are always say, "Marriage is between a man and a woman and has always been that way."

So, I did 5 minutes of research and cited sources showing that gay marriage has been found in various cultures in various civilizations throughout time.

So all the ignorant just stick their heads in the sand and do what they do best... ignore it and continue to believe their bigotted biases.

If you had any interest in being openminded, you'll find some stuff on your own.

On another note.... Just to show the mindnumbingly horrific logic of the bigots... if there was a rash of murders by Latvians... the bigots would conclude all Latvians are cold blooded murders. They would say, "you don't see news stories about moderate Latvians." Well, you don't see ANY stories about Latvians (other then obviously Bush's visit there.) Americans don't read about other religions, other people, we don't care much for world news unless it directly effects us.

The people prattling on about "ALL MUSLIMS" are Clearly morons. As I posted earlier, from Wikipedia, the distribution of Muslim populations throughout the world. Can you fathom 1.2 Billion people all over the world. Only a complete moron would pretend that they could generalize about all Muslims. The fact that you one would ask for proof that there are moderate Muslims is staggering.

Engage your brain.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

Yes, there are some moderate Muslims. Yes, there are fanatics of other faiths as well.

The philosophical foundation of Islam itself supports extremism. The fanatics can point to scripture for support, and most imams interpret the scriptures in such manner as well. They are the ones studied in Islam; do you really think they are wrong, without (I'm guessing) reading the texts yourself? This philosophical support of Islam for extremism is a real problem, and I don't think there is a solution in the philosophical sense. Islam is philosophically opposed to all other religions, and Islam is intrinsically wedded to the mundane and to political matters as well. The ultimate goal of Islam is to bring the whole world into alignment with God's wishes and words as spelled out in the Koran--incuding through use of force if need be. This is true intolerance at the deepest philosophical level.

It's not the same as, say, Christianity in this regard for very clear philosophical reasons. While I am not a Christian (except in the sense of great admiration for Jesus' demonstration and teachings of love and forgiveness towards even the cruelest of enemies), I can see most striking differences in the philosophical sense. Do not confuse the actions of some Muslims and Christians with the actual teachings of the religion. The actual teachings of the two religions are night and day apart in terms of what the adherents should do on this Earth. I suspect you may not be aware of this because of the stoning example you gave--which is backwards. Christianity teaches that women who cheat should NOT be stoned--as the parable of Jesus and the adultress illustrates. You may be thinking of Old Testament Judaism instead.

Essentially, Christianity is pacifist in the purest philosophical sense (however many adherents do not realize this). Islam however is not pacifist philosophically, and is philosophicaly committed to using force if need be to bring about Allah's will on Earth. This is very dangerous. Of course many Muslims may not realize this, just as many lay Catholics may not know very much about their own religion. But the Islamic extremists generally do have the support of scripture, as scary as that sounds. This is not to say that the actions of all terrorists are scripturally supported, though.

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

kurto, i agree there are many moderate Muslims, and that most Muslims are not extremists. One problem however is that the violent extremists are nevertheless quite numerous.

Also, especially in the Middle East and parts of Asia, the moderates often hesitate to speak out against the actions of the extremists for fear of incurring personal harm. This is often a reasonable fear on their part.

A great many clergy also preach extremism. Obviously this creates further problems.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

First, may I say I appreciate your measured responses. You are the anti-jaxmike. lol

[ QUOTE ]
The philosophical foundation of Islam itself supports extremism. The fanatics can point to scripture for support, and most imams interpret the scriptures in such manner as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have one friend who is a genius. I don't throw this term around lightly. He is a true intellectual. I look at his library and marvel at his collection. He goes to Philosophy camp every summer for fun. He speaks multiple lanuages. He's the kind of person who read the Koran for the pleasure of it.

I just remember his remarks.. he was struck by the beauty of the book. He and many others echoed the belief that it IS a religion of peace.

The people who use religion for their own ends, ALL study the texts and use the words to their own ends. The KKK cites the Bible for their justifications. The people who handle snakes and drink poison believe they are following the texts. The Crusades and the Inquisition were all following what they believed were the instructions of their faith. To condemn a religion based on the violent actions of some is wrong. If so, we should condemn Christianity which has a long and rich history of war and violence in its name.

[ QUOTE ]
They are the ones studied in Islam; do you really think they are wrong, without (I'm guessing) reading the texts yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]
In a sense.. yes. Or to be more accurate... there is no right or wrong. Those who say Islam is a religion of peace are correct; that's what they choose to take from the book. The extremists take what they want and ignore what they don't like to justify their actions.

I don't believe the extremists are really interested in religion. I think, as has been done throughout history, it is people using religion as a tool to motivate and control people. OBL wasn't attacking the US because of his religion. He was attacking the US because of their interference in the Middle East (he said as much when he declared war on the US)... he used religion as a tool to incite his people.

Bush did the same thing when says God tells him to do what he does.

If you read (I keep plugging this book) Under the Banner of Heaven, you'll learn how Mormons used their religion to steal from Christians, Murder people, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
The ultimate goal of Islam is to bring the whole world into alignment with God's wishes and words as spelled out in the Koran--incuding through use of force if need be. This is true intolerance at the deepest philosophical level.


[/ QUOTE ]

SEE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANITY. This is true of many religions. As I said, the spread of Christianity has probably led to more wars and killing throughout history then any other religion. Read the Old Testament... it advocates a lot of killing and violence that would compete with Muslims.

[ QUOTE ]
Christianity teaches that women who cheat should NOT be stoned--

[/ QUOTE ]
I was referring to Old Testament. I am saying that there are Christians TODAY who believe people should revert back to Old Testament standards.

[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is pacifist in the purest philosophical sense (however many adherents do not realize this).

[/ QUOTE ]
New Testament is pacificst. Old Testament isn't. The problem is both books are taught. (One should mention too that the Bible has contradictory teachings. On the one hand it will teach you not to kill. Then it will endorse 'an eye for an eye.' People can find wwhat they want in the book.)

[ QUOTE ]
Islam however is not pacifist philosophically, and is philosophicaly committed to using force if need be to bring about Allah's will on Earth.

[/ QUOTE ]
As I said... different Muslims see the fundamental philosophies quite differently. I won't pretend to know which group is right. I only know that, from everything I've read, the majority of Muslims think that the fanatics we read about all the time have perverted their religion. Many have denounced them saying they aren't true followers of the faith. Though I'm not surprised that groups following the same religion can have such different outlooks.

Look at the Bible; Old Testament shared by Jews and Christians. Christianity has Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Quakers, Evangelicals, methodists, Snake Handlers, etc. There are countless divisions of Christianity all with different philosophies and practices... many radically opposed to each other, ALL using the same texts to support their beliefs.

Why should Islam be any different?

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One problem however is that the violent extremists are nevertheless quite numerous.


[/ QUOTE ]

True dat.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, especially in the Middle East and parts of Asia, the moderates often hesitate to speak out against the actions of the extremists for fear of incurring personal harm. This is often a reasonable fear on their part.


[/ QUOTE ]

There has been some hope. Just with the incursion of Western Culture, there have been pushes for reform in some Islamic nations. (I posted this somewhere.. there had been a story on 60min or similar show recently with a story about music, dancing and women uncovering their faces in one of the countries... women getting jobs and people wanting a non-seculare govt.)

This is my opinion, but George Bush is not good for the cause. He has caused a surge in fanatical conversion. He calls the nations he has political problems with as "EVIL". His 'lone cowboy' attitude reinforces everything bad that they see about our country.

Anyhoo... nice chatting with you.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

First, I think it is important to make clear distinction between what the texts actually say, and what followers actually practice. There is a huge difference between the two--in some caees, for better, in some, for worse.

I don't have time now but if I don't have to go out of town next week I may post some scriptures of various religions, to try to illustrate certain points. I don't believe it is entirely subject to interpretation or that all religions essentially say the same thing. I have read a great deal of Buddhism, Zen, and Taoism; and a fair amount of Christianity, and a lesser amount of Judaism and Islam. I think I have a pretty good handle on the general tenets of these religions and while some of it is open to interpretation (and misinterpretation) there are also some very clear and striking philosophical differences.

Short note: The Koran is very heavy with verses enjoining Muslims to do horrible things to non-believers: tortures, killings, subjugation, domination, withholding of friendship, etc. etc. The Koran espouses more violence and conflict towards others than peace, in my opinion, and it's not close. Granted there are some verses towards peace, but even the Koranic view of peace is fundamentally different than the Western view: the Koranic view of peace is: one world at harmony under Allah, following Allah's will. Other allowances and tolerances are stopgap or pragmatic measures.

Also, Muhammad raised armies of conquest and pillage, through the devices of promising his soldiers booty in this world and paradise in the next. Contrast this with Jesus' instructions to turn the other cheek to those who do you ill, to lay up treasures in the kingdom of heaven not in this world, to forgive, etc. Muhammad was a statesman and a warrior through and through and the Koranic injunctions reflect this mindset, whereas the teachings of Jesus emphasize humility and not resisting evil. Truly the philosophical underpinnings of the two religions, as well as the personal historical lives of Muhammad and Jesus, are poles apart (although you wouldn't know it to look at some of the practitioners).

Anyway, enough for now. Good chatting with you.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

I don't believe the extremists are really interested in religion. I think, as has been done throughout history, it is people using religion as a tool to motivate and control people.

This is the key statement.

All religions basically say the same thing. They do it using allegory and stories to make their points. Literal interpretation of religious text is dangerous and because of the presentation it is possible to draw many conclusions -- specially when scripture is quoted out of context.

Islam/Christianity/Judaism etc are all dangerous tools in the hands of those who want to use them to further their own agendas. This was so in the history of christianity (and in some areas still is so) and was so and is used in Islam and Judaism today.

An example of a interpretation of the bible where people draw vastly different interpretations is in the area of homosexuality. There are learned Christians who claim that homosexuality is banned and there are others who claim that Christianity is tolerant of gays and could accept gay marriage.

The problem in the Islamic world is, that the sense of persecution felt by some has driven them to accept extremists and incorrect interpretations of Islam.

Those who write off the religion are mistaken. Those who understand that the religion is being misused by some are on the right path.

Just My Opinion.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

Nice post.

I think it's funny when religions point the finger at eachother like that. Like their religions are so lilly white. Isn't organized religion fun? Except many will defend their religions' actions as justifiable while the others' actions are just heinous.

Screw 'em all.

b

Re: Does Islam Deserve Any Respect?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Based on the ACTIONS and INACTIONS of its 'pious and righteous' followers, I see nothing to respect from Islam. If the 'pious and rightious' followers of Islam approve of flying planes into buildings and murdering people, I'd sure hate to meet the less pious of their religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same can be said about the catholic church, can't it? Especially given their past. They have their overzealous fanatics too.

b

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

[ QUOTE ]
All religions basically say the same thing

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extremely ignorant and erroneous statement. From this it should be presumed that you have never had a course in comparative religion, or done much reading yourself in multiple specific religions.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

I stand by my statement.

Each religion has various trappings around a core philosophy that is similar. They all build around the philospohy differently. This is specially true about the monotheist religions.

Re: More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

[ QUOTE ]
· Like Muslim Rashid Baz, who opened fire on a van of Hassidic kids on the Brooklyn Bridge in 1994 (one dead).


[/ QUOTE ]

Those Hasidic kids were settlers on Oneida Indian tribe lands that were illegally conficated and developed by Dutch, Anglo and finally Jew colonists...therefore they were "legitimate" targets of the heroic muslim freedom fighter(Baz) who was quite obviously only concerned about the evident human rights violations taking place in his midst.

Welcome to the far left world view...next order please.

Re: More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

What does this have to do with the far left?

Regarding your quoted example, I suggest you dig up some of the atrocities in Ireland; Serbia; India; Ileave you to find other examples, for other idiots doing things to each other in the name of religion.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All religions basically say the same thing



[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extremely ignorant and erroneous statement. From this it should be presumed that you have never had a course in comparative religion, or done much reading yourself in multiple specific religions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand by my statement.

Each religion has various trappings around a core philosophy that is similar. They all build around the philospohy differently. This is specially true about the monotheist religions.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is true to a degree but ONLY of the monotheistic religions. Moreover, some of the differences in what you refer to as the "various trappings" are quite profound, so much so that the religions themselves (in this case, Islam and Christianity) are literally poles apart in some of their most important tenets.

Your statement is totally false as applied to Buddhism, and generally false with regard to Taoism as well.

Some Friendly Advive
 

"Where do you work? I work in NYC and work with, go out to dinner with/party with Muslims."
*************************************************
1. When you go out with these Muslims, where a "hidden" steel collar. That way if one of them goes 'crazy' on you with a knife and starts yelling "Allah Akbar", the first blow will hit the steel collar preventing them from chopping your head off.

2. Wear a bomb proof suit. If they ask you why you are wearing it say, "It is NOT because I think you are a crazy, homicidal, suicide bomber it is because is is.....Mmmmmmm....Halloween."

Re: Some Friendly Advive
 

I hope you're making fun of bigots.

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

The difference is that the Koran offers very specific instructions regarding every day life. De Tocqueville said that Judaism and Islam would never be conducive to democracy because they are so dictatorial.

Yes, almost all religion is capable of being misinterpreted to selfish and worldly ends. I think that Islam is far more likely to be interpreted in this way, and that the language to destroy infidels is more prevalent in the Koran than in the Bible. It's in the Bible, no doubt, and so political leaders have used these passages to begin wars, etc.

The problem with the world as it is today is that it has given Islamic leaders all the more reason to trot out these sentiments. Islam can be a religion of peace, just as Christianity can be a religion of war, but circumstances are going to dictate that more often than the tenets of the religion.

Re: More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

I don;t suppose it's worth pointing out yet again that it's been repeatedly made clear that the Afghan riots probably had very little to do with the Newsweek/Koran incident and were actually set off by local issues. There have been protests about the incident all over the Muslim world, and almost all if not all of them have been peaceful.

Re: More proof that I hate all Muslims...
 

I suppose Jews in the Warsaw ghetto would be described as jihadists by you?

The situation in Iraq is very similar to Poland. An imperialist agressor invades. The imperialist invader uses torture propaganda, and murder in occupying the country. Legitimate resisistance takes place.

The Newsweek "retraction" simply states that the allegations by the international red cross have not been proven in a court of law. The liklihood of the incidents being true are probably 94.9%


Your clear prejudice against Muslims does smack of racism.

Your repeated radical right wing posts do nothing to help the relationship between Islam and Judaism.

LOL!
 

You have already advocated genocidal murder in Islam many times on this forum.

And The March Towards Complete Irrationality Continues
 

Why slow down, jokerswild? You can get there if you really try.

Woof Woof!!

Re: Where The Real Bigotry Is
 

but circumstances are going to dictate that more often than the tenets of the religion.

Exactly right. The problem is not Islam but the circumstances that the Muslims around the world find themselves in. Islam, Judaism, Christianity are just as good as long as they are in the homes as a matter of personal faith. Once the politicians get hold of them, they are all just as bad.