Post for david...
 

David was kind enough to agree to respond to a post regarding blind defense. It seems to be one of the topics that keeps coming up lately, and there has been a lot of different on ideas on how we should be dealing with some common situations. I've been discussing this with Hiatus Over quite a bit lately, and I feel he is better suited to make this post than I am. This was written by him a few minutes ago:


I have had the pleasure to meet a bunch of mid-high posters in the last few months...Like dorks when we get together we talk poker-poker-poker. Everyone seems to be doing well which is real encouraging but one interesting thing that I have noticed is all of us winning players are taking many different approaches to defending our BB and to a lesser extent our SB...In HPFAP when discussing BB defense against a steal raise the advice given seems much tighter than what some extremely succesful high limit online players are reporting they are defending with. For example. During a live game with a bunch of 2+2'ers in it...A strong playing Cut-Off open raised. He is tough and tenacious. I was in the BB and folded T7o face-up and asked if this was a huge mistake. All 3 strong playing 2+2'ers told me I was making a huge mistake here. They said I was getting 3.5-1 closing the action and that I was way better than 3.5-1 against the range of hands...which is obviously true when all-in but I was always under the impression that the fact that u have no playing adavantages and a horrible implied odds hand out of position turned this into a relatively easy fold.

HPFAP on defending the BB against steal raises..."Against weak players who won't make good use of their position advantage on the flop u can call with hands as weak as those in Group 8. Howeever, it still might be best to throw some of the smaller non-suited connectors away...If someone calls in between you and your opponet or if your opponent play well, then you must tighten up some. But you can still play a lot of hands, perhaps Group 1-6" so we have a big discrepancy here between 2 sources I trust...1. the book I tore apart for 2 years straight and is the #1 reason why 3 years later I can go sit in any live 100-200 game in the country and feel like a favorite and have the bankroll to be comfortable....#2. a number of guys who play as tough as they come it seems and are bashing heads with some of the strongest players around and making a lot of money.

So, what should I be defending my blinds with? I look at the best Party Poker players and they are all taking different approaches...2 of the most respected players in the game for example are miles away on defending...one folds his BB to a steal raise 37 percent of the time, the other 58...they are both destroying the game. Also I have heard some stuff being thrown around 2+2 by simulators (Peter Runs, well respected winning player for 1) that u can play any 2 suited to a raise as long as its atleast 3-way...I thought and still think this cant be true. Can it? The math works all-in, but just doesnt seem right. 1 more example...I am teaching my very intelligent cousin limit hold em. Gave him pokerstove he is a math guy and is doing well with it. He sent me a hand where MP open raised...button 3-bet and my cousin called 87s in the BB...I told him this is way wrong, but when u plug it in to poker stove the math works out about even and it seems like it is a good implied odds spot. One last question for DS or whoever is good at searching the archives...I have a bet with JV about the old 73s thread that caught storm a year or so ago, I think it was mixed in with some Tommy Angelo is crazy post...Did DS say that we should always be defending 73s in the BB to raise HU or 3 way? I wont tell u what side we have, but I will tell u that the loser will have some embarrassing consequences for being wrong. Anyways...hope this gets some good discussion going about actual poker. Im sure I will have many more questions examples along the way but just wanted to throw this out there to start since David was kind of enough to say he would help us out with this.

Re: Post for david...
 

Anyone who wants to chime in is welcome OBV, certainly not just for DS

Re: Post for david...
 

One thing to keep in mind is that when getting 3.5-1 odds, you should be calling a lot because you're getting a good price. If you flop something, just continue to the river. You can play like a wuss oftentimes, because the money is going in anyway. In other words, extraction of value will occur because your opponent is tenacious and tough. However, you'll not have as many positional issues since you're not gonna put in as much action.

Another reason to call a lot is so that they'll stop stealing from you so easily. I love playing against people who are non-defenders. I just figure that I will either get the button twice a round, and/or that I will get to play for free. If you aren't thinking like this, then I don't think you are a favorite in a 100-200 game. I'm serious.

Re: Post for david...
 

To further explain the huge discrepancy...The range that these loose blind defenders (who are winning a lot of money, although maybe despite these standards) are using includes basically any hand with a face card or ace in it (Q4o is definitely coming)...almost all suited hands with very few exceptions...2 gappers down to 64o, a lot of unsuited 3-gappers (one of the best big limit players online defended his blind with 74o just yesterday against a normal Hi-Jack open raise and I am 99 percent sure it wasnt a misclick he defends weak all the time). Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to poop the party before it's started, but maybe it's because there are a huge range of BB hands for which defending is extremely close to breakeven, meaning it hardly matters what you do?

Re: Post for david...
 

The 73 suited thread involved an early position limper, a late position raiser and you calling with 73 suited from the bb.

I said in that thread that to make the call, you have to be a very good postflop player. DS corrected me and said that this was an easy call even if your postflop skills wre average.

Re: Post for david...
 

Thank u SKP

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to poop the party before it's started, but maybe it's because there are a huge range of BB hands for which defending is extremely close to breakeven, meaning it hardly matters what you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah point taken a lot of these spots are pretty close to break even. But then again after a certain point, dont you have to start looking at those marginal spots and how to play them correctly in order to take your game to the next level? In Hiatus 10 7 hand example. He was under the impression it was a clear fold, and other top players thought it was a clear call. Somebody has to be way off base, no?

Also there are different spots he didnt mention that I think are worth discussing. For example, how about hands like 109s out of the SB agaist a cutoff raise with a normmal range. How much does it depend on how likely the bb is to come along? How much does it matter how strong or weak both players are postflop? Is it correct to pretty much defend with any two out of the BB when faciing a raise from the SB? How often should we be three betting rather than just calling? How about the range of hands we should should be three betting out of the BB VS a loose button raiser? How much should his postflop tendancies effect our decision?

I'm not really expecting anyone to come in and answer all these questions, and of course I have my own thoughts on all of this althuogh I'd be the first to admit I'm sure I dont play all these spots optimally. I guess what I'm trying to say is there should be plenty to discuss here. You were defintely one of the people I was hoping to hear from on this stuff.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Explain to me where this huge gap in theory comes from...someone please!

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to poop the party before it's started, but maybe it's because there are a huge range of BB hands for which defending is extremely close to breakeven, meaning it hardly matters what you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's been my opinion for a while. Seems like variance is the only difference.

Re: Post for david...
 

OK, so we have some people (who by the way play 1500 hands per day) saying that it doesnt matter because its close, not excepting that sorry...And then JA Sucker tells me I cant beat a 100-200 game even though I have all this money that says that I can beat a 100-200 game. JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever, so whatever u decide to do is fine with me, but if u are gonna respond so bluntly and knowitall'ish I think maybe a loose range of hands that u defend with and an explanation why HPFAP doesnt agree with u would be nice. Basically all u said is call a lot, check-call, check-call...check.

Also, what does this line mean...?
"I love playing against people who are non-defenders. I just figure that I will either get the button twice a round, and/or that I will get to play for free."

What does someone being a non-defender have to do with them attacking your blinds...I know a lot of tighter players from the BB who are huge on playing hands in position and attacking blinds

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 73 suited thread involved an early position limper, a late position raiser and you calling with 73 suited from the bb.

I said in that thread that to make the call, you have to be a very good postflop player. DS corrected me and said that this was an easy call even if your postflop skills wre average.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was that an older thread or a more recent one? Can anyone link it?

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like variance is the only difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

That, and whether or not some random drunk guy keeps raising your blinds with 8 high every round.

The reason you defend in EV neutral situations is to prevent -EV situations from coming up later.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to keep in mind is that when getting 3.5-1 odds, you should be calling a lot because you're getting a good price. If you flop something, just continue to the river. You can play like a wuss oftentimes, because the money is going in anyway. In other words, extraction of value will occur because your opponent is tenacious and tough. However, you'll not have as many positional issues since you're not gonna put in as much action.

Another reason to call a lot is so that they'll stop stealing from you so easily. I love playing against people who are non-defenders. I just figure that I will either get the button twice a round, and/or that I will get to play for free. If you aren't thinking like this, then I don't think you are a favorite in a 100-200 game. I'm serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you really need to create some online accounts and show us how to beat a 100-200 game.

Re: Post for david...
 

That thread was circa spring 2001. I am brutal at archives searches. And if I did find the old thread, I am even brutaler (sic) at linking it.

Re: Post for david...
 

Variance makes a lot of things look neutral for a long time that aren't neutral. The best players generally embrace the highest variance situations, especially at high limits.

Re: Post for david...
 

I disagree. At the higher limits, this situation comes up all the time and is extremely important. If you are folding to many big blinds or not playing aggressively enough after the flop, I believe that is enough to turn you from a winner to a loser in games 100-200 and higher. Paluka surely would disagree, I'm sure he'll pipe in soon.

In short, this situation cannot be dismissed. Party on.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah point taken a lot of these spots are pretty close to break even. But then again after a certain point, dont you have to start looking at those marginal spots and how to play them correctly in order to take your game to the next level? In Hiatus 10 7 hand example. He was under the impression it was a clear fold, and other top players thought it was a clear call. Somebody has to be way off base, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's a fair point. It's not like the extra .10 BB/100 wouldn't be worth fighting for, especially if you're multitabling 30/60 online or something.

In terms of my own game, I've gradually been moving toward looser and looser blind play over the time, but there are still a lot of situations where I don't have a set play. Which is just kind of weird. I could list for you almost exactly the hands that I'd open-raise with on the Button given typical opponents, but I don't know that I could provide the same list for the BB.

I do know that, the last time I looked at my Pokertracker numbers in some detail, there wasn't any group of hands that I was generally defending with that was showing a loss worse than the .50 BB I'd lose by folding. That, combined with Peter_Rus's research, JA Sucker's salient point about how it's fairly profitable to play fit-or-fold against typical opponents, the metagame benefit of deterring future steals, and the favorable rake structures in midlimit online games, suggest that I should err on the side of defending a bit looser than I already do, and perhaps quite a bit looser than "textbook play" would suggest.

Re: Post for david...
 

I'm not saying that you can or can't beat a 1-2 game, and I'm not trying to be snide in my remarks, nor am I trying to attack you. Seriously. I know that you are an excellent player from your posts, and I'm sure I've played with you online.

If you don't like me, fine. However, my advice is generally pretty good, I think.

My comment about non defenders being great on my left is a valid point though. MOST non-defenders are people who won't float/3 bet with the range of hands that they should when a tough player opens to the right of them in the cutoff or one more to the right of that. Thus, you can either get a SB who NEVER defends without the goods (a nice situation when you're on the button), or if they are 2 to the left of you, you get to steal their BB more often than you should when you have the button and will often be able to steal from 2 OFF THE BUTTON when they have it. This is very sweet, and is like playing a game with no antes.

As for my postflop stategy, check call, check-call gets the money in lots of situations, but people who have played with me in these situaitons know that it's nowhere near all that I do, either with good hands or bad hands.

There's also a little more to my comments because at high limits, hands are not played in a vacuum. Thus, I think that it's far better to be a loose defender than a tight one.

Re: Post for david...
 

I don't know why you think I don't play online, though I don't play all that much.

Re: Post for david...
 

On an unrelated note, my friend Matt and to a lesser extent I completely invented and populated the term float which u have seemed to embrace. Glad u are enjoying it. Also, u have said before that u can easily beat floaters and u love to play against them cause they are so easy to exploit, and now u say they are a nuisance and harder to play against. These kind of comments are where I have formed a less that A+ opinion on your posts. (You seem to always think u have the answers, no questions asked) All that being said, u are right...being a loose blind defender has tons of adavantages the bigger u go and I think it is a leak of mine...By the way I dont think anyone is running over my blinds enough to be playing a no ante game, I adjust my defending to how often they are stealing and I am still in there defending trust me. I was just suprised HOW LOOSE some very good players defend. Thanks for your contributions to the thread so far

Re: Post for david...
 

Everybody keeps saying that by defending our BB looser we deter future steals, and that is one of the big benefits. Now if we are making money with our 74o or k2o dont we want people attempting to steal our blind?

Re: Post for david...
 

No, you don't want people raising when you post a blind bet.

Firstly, you don't make money by defending your blinds with hands like 74. Hell, I don't think you make money from the blinds with any hands except the premium ones. The point though is that you may reduce your losses by defending more. Or, at least, that's the question being asked by Hiatus Over.

But overall: We all would be delighted if no one ever raised when we posted our blinds and we certainly don't want a raise when we hold a hand like T7 but the question is whether we should grit our teeth and call in order to reduce the loss we would show if we folded.

Re: Post for david...
 

T7o is an easy defend against all but the tightest players.

Yours odds are very good because a stealer will nearly always autobet HU, a lot of them will also bet the turn with an unimproved ace or even less. check/call check/call works well against aggressive opponents.

When I look for a blind defence hand I generally want something that will hit a few flops whether it be a draw or a middle sized pair. Low pairs generally suck because when you both hit you want to be ahead, a lot of people steal with one high card one trash like A3o K5s etc if you can beat the low card you will do well when he hits his crap pair and you hit yours.

Hands like 97s are great for defence. You can hit a pair/gutshot/OESD/FD, lots of semibluffing opportunities.

I tend to shy away from 1 high card one trash card unsuited. K2o Q3o J6o type hands are pretty worthless for defense imo.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, you don't want people raising when you post a blind bet.

Firstly, you don't make money by defending your blinds with hands like 74. Hell, I don't think you make money from the blinds with any hands except the premium ones. The point though is that you may reduce your losses by defending more. Or, at least, that's the question being asked by Hiatus Over.

But overall: We all would be delighted if no one ever raised when we posted our blinds and we certainly don't want a raise when we hold a hand like T7 but the question is whether we should grit our teeth and call in order to reduce the loss we would show if we folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty sure thats what the answer was going to be, I just wanted to make sure you guys wearnt going crazy with this.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody keeps saying that by defending our BB looser we deter future steals, and that is one of the big benefits. Now if we are making money with our 74o or k2o dont we want people attempting to steal our blind?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because if nobody raises, you're losing less (making more).

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The point though is that you may reduce your losses by defending more.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is dead on, but I think the phrase "reduce your losses" is confusing, so I'm going to describe it another way, by counting my blind money as gone and looking at folding as an EV of 0. Now...

EV playing is slightly positive, but EV of everyone folding to me is +.75BB. Clearly I don't want to take a .10 BB situation when there's .75BB one to be had. So if calling loose stops people from attacking my blinds, even sometimes stops them, that's good for me. In fact, now that I look at it, I'm going to defend even more now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Good luck.
Eric

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of my own game, I've gradually been moving toward looser and looser blind play over the time, but there are still a lot of situations where I don't have a set play. Which is just kind of weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats not weird at all. I defend probably the most of 2+2 players I know in SH and full ring. (I fold BB to a steal in 6 max only like 41%)

Ceratin hands are a no brainer defend, but against certain opponents (mainly turn folders) I can defend a little looser and blow them off hands (let alone if I flop a hand)

[ QUOTE ]
the metagame benefit of deterring future steals, and the favorable rake structures in midlimit online games, suggest that I should err on the side of defending a bit looser than I already do, and perhaps quite a bit looser than "textbook play" would suggest.

[/ QUOTE ]

The metagame of it is really good. You would be so surprised o at how many "walks" i get in the course of a session when they realize I defend so fiercely and frequently.

Re: Post for david...
 

I just wanted to point out that even though I do realize that the difference between calling and folding is very small with a lot of hands in these spots it has to become more important as the limit goes up. Sure it probably doesnt matter if we defend our BB with 10 7 agaist mr12345 in the 15-30 party game. These decisions dont come up often enough to really matter one way or another. But as the limit goes up, there are very few multiway pots, and players in general get much more aggresive over by the button when it is folded to them. This creates a lot more of these spots, so it has to become more important to have a better grasp on what is correct and what is not correct.

Re: Post for david...
 

No doubt. Technically, it's not the limit that matters but the tightness of the game (but of course there is generally a pretty good correlation between the two).

When I played live, it was generally a loose game. But of course there would be hands when it would get folded to the button. I would muck frequently in the blinds because I knew that it was not important for me to defend blinds in order to crush the game. On party 15-30, I defend more than I did live (but probably still not nearly enough) as the games can often be a late position v. blinds contest with the MP players serving as the peanut gallery. I suppose the 30 games on Party are even more along those lines and the 100-200 games even more etc etc.

Re: Post for david...
 

"JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever"

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but this just made me stop and go "wow". JASucker is one of the most unoffensive posters around, you are crazy to think that.

Re: Post for david...
 

Typical B@m scenario: 2 chip 3 chip blind structure. We have the J9s in the cutoff. We open raise. The bb has 47s. As hes ready to muck he asks "u want action." He doesnt play bad doesnt play good. Is it wrong for us to say yes? I ALWAYS want action in this spot. Mainly being in holdem it is hard to hit a flop. And with j9 theres a lot of flops u can represent. If it comes ak7 and he hits his key card we still win. BTW I 100% disagree with all of this nonsense about defending with 10-7o and such.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Typical B@m scenario: 2 chip 3 chip blind structure. We have the J9s in the cutoff. We open raise. The bb has 47s. As hes ready to muck he asks "u want action." He doesnt play bad doesnt play good. Is it wrong for us to say yes? I ALWAYS want action in this spot. Mainly being in holdem it is hard to hit a flop. And with j9 theres a lot of flops u can represent. If it comes ak7 and he hits his key card we still win. BTW I 100% disagree with all of this nonsense about defending with 10-7o and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. Which is the biggest reason I wanted to get some feeback from you guys. I cant ever remember defending in that spot agaist a guy with a normal opening range, but since a lot of sucessful players seem to think its a mistake not to, I have to wonder if I need to be a little more stuborn with my marginal hands. I also agree with your thinking in spots like your J9 example.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Typical B@m scenario: 2 chip 3 chip blind structure. We have the J9s in the cutoff. We open raise. The bb has 47s. As hes ready to muck he asks "u want action." He doesnt play bad doesnt play good. Is it wrong for us to say yes? I ALWAYS want action in this spot. Mainly being in holdem it is hard to hit a flop. And with j9 theres a lot of flops u can represent. If it comes ak7 and he hits his key card we still win. BTW I 100% disagree with all of this nonsense about defending with 10-7o and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think your expectation is greater than .75 bb/hand when he calls?

Re: Post for david...
 

You want a fold and its not close. The only exception he plans on folding extremely often.

Some numbers:
 

Versus a cutoff range: AA-55, Aks-A2s, Ako-A9o, KQo-K-To, QJs, QTs, JTs, KQs-KTs, QJo, QTo.


BB hands:
T7o: 65-35
J2o: 70-30
84s: 66-34

Slightly suprising the first time I saw these.

It is really not my place to say what I think of these numbers as the original ideas were not mine and I'd be wrongfully regurgitating other people thoughts.

But at first glance, it certainly makes me want to defend more blinds if you play well heads up out of position.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, you don't make money by defending your blinds with hands like 74.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by "don't make money". Against typical loose raisers you will win more of the pot on average, than the small bet you must put in to call the raise.

Re: Post for david...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"JA, even though I dont really like the tone of your posts basically ever"

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet but this just made me stop and go "wow". JASucker is one of the most unoffensive posters around, you are crazy to think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. He is one of a handfull of posters I always read.

And another one for David
 

Josh W. posted this a while back, I thought it made a lot of sense, wondering about your take:

A decent amount has been written about playing "Any two" in the SB of a 2/3 chip game. And, yet, I feel that not enough has been written.

See, the problem is...you are getting like 14:1 on your call. Even if the BB never ever ever ever ever raises preflop, that's not enough.

Sure, you'll win the pot more than 1 in 15 times against 4 opponents. But hands like this make the second best hand waaaay too often.

A friend of mine once asked me what hands I won't play in a situation like this. My response was "weak unsuited face cards". I'd seriously rather have 73o in this spot than K4o. Yeah, K4o will win more often, but K4o will also lose many bets waaaaay too often.

I was talking with a friend in Vegas during the WSOP. He’s new to poker, and asked about 'seeing the flop' in the SB w/ specifically Q6o (very similar). My discussion went basically like:
Alright, you may flop quads. That's a good flop. And, you may flop trips. Your trips will win pretty frequently (when nobody else flops trips, and any/all draws miss), but when they lose, you'll be barbequed. And then there's all the times you flop two pair.

You have Q6o, and the flop comes Q86 with two clubs. The only reason you saw the flop was because it was 6 or 7 way action. It's still 6 or 7 way action. What do you want the other two cards to be? You'll have to pound the bejeezus outta the flop and turn, and hope that nobody improves by the river.

Same with K4o. Gimme 94o instead. Then I can't flop top pair as easily, and I can get away from it except when I get a good flop (quads). But with weak unsuited face cards, you make the second best hand waaaay too often.

And what if you flop just one pair. If the flop was KQ3 two-tone. MP bets, and zero or one person calls. Now what do you do? Check/call the whole way? Push your weak hand? Nothing looks too good. And yet, if its heads up, you gonna fold top pair? That can't be a good habit to get into. And you're committed to being out of position.

I guess what I'm saying is, throw the crap away. Look, you even said that your 'timing' is off now. You seem uncertain of yourself (perfectly normal and expected). Well, make life easy on yourself. Don’t put yourself in a situation where there are no easy decisions.

Poker is easy right now. Don’t make it hard. Playing K4o out of position is hard.

Re: And another one for David
 

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is easy right now. Don’t make it hard. Playing K4o out of position is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy and you seem to have a never-ending interest in making things easy, that many others posters do not share. I play poker because I enjoy the challenge of it and because I like to think. With the end goal being to make the most money possible, keeping things easy is not a high priority of mine.

Re: And another one for David
 

[ QUOTE ]
Josh W. posted this a while back, I thought it made a lot of sense, wondering about your take:

A decent amount has been written about playing "Any two" in the SB of a 2/3 chip game. And, yet, I feel that not enough has been written.

See, the problem is...you are getting like 14:1 on your call. Even if the BB never ever ever ever ever raises preflop, that's not enough.

Sure, you'll win the pot more than 1 in 15 times against 4 opponents. But hands like this make the second best hand waaaay too often.

A friend of mine once asked me what hands I won't play in a situation like this. My response was "weak unsuited face cards". I'd seriously rather have 73o in this spot than K4o. Yeah, K4o will win more often, but K4o will also lose many bets waaaaay too often.

I was talking with a friend in Vegas during the WSOP. He’s new to poker, and asked about 'seeing the flop' in the SB w/ specifically Q6o (very similar). My discussion went basically like:
Alright, you may flop quads. That's a good flop. And, you may flop trips. Your trips will win pretty frequently (when nobody else flops trips, and any/all draws miss), but when they lose, you'll be barbequed. And then there's all the times you flop two pair.

You have Q6o, and the flop comes Q86 with two clubs. The only reason you saw the flop was because it was 6 or 7 way action. It's still 6 or 7 way action. What do you want the other two cards to be? You'll have to pound the bejeezus outta the flop and turn, and hope that nobody improves by the river.

Same with K4o. Gimme 94o instead. Then I can't flop top pair as easily, and I can get away from it except when I get a good flop (quads). But with weak unsuited face cards, you make the second best hand waaaay too often.

And what if you flop just one pair. If the flop was KQ3 two-tone. MP bets, and zero or one person calls. Now what do you do? Check/call the whole way? Push your weak hand? Nothing looks too good. And yet, if its heads up, you gonna fold top pair? That can't be a good habit to get into. And you're committed to being out of position.

I guess what I'm saying is, throw the crap away. Look, you even said that your 'timing' is off now. You seem uncertain of yourself (perfectly normal and expected). Well, make life easy on yourself. Don’t put yourself in a situation where there are no easy decisions.

Poker is easy right now. Don’t make it hard. Playing K4o out of position is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like the argument that unsuited 76 is better than suited 76 b/c you won't get tied to the pot with the unsuited version.