Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

Villain seems TAG.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Yes?

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

wtf?

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

Bad fold?

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

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Bad fold?

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Yes.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

Me no likey this fold. Given that the board paired, villain could easily have put you on a bluff and raised something like KK.

Heck, I'd bet/call this river even if the A hadn't paired, although I'd be willing to entertain arguments about why bet/fold is better.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

[ QUOTE ]
River: (6.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Yes?

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I don't understand this fold at all. I wouldn't be able to make it without an extremely specific read.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

On the outside it looks bad, but I really don't see what Villain is raising here that you beat.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I think we should have checkraised the turn.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

Given that the board paired, villain could easily have put you on a bluff and raised something like KK.

Err this probably isn't the case. The villian either has us toasted or he has something like KQ or a pocket pair under jacks. You are almost always going to lose in this spot if you call, but the pot might be big to warrent one. I dunno...I have never called and won in this spot personally (though the river bet is good).

Brad

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

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On the outside it looks bad, but I really don't see what Villain is raising here that you beat.

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You're almost 90% sure you're beat here? With the right read I can understand, but "Villain seems TAG" isn't enough in my opinion.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

this is almost always AK. I always call the raise wen I c/call c/call bet agaiinst unknowns, but with a read this fold is not "atrocious". a typical 2/4 TAG isnt going to be bluff raising KQ or QQ here.

if we were talking a tough table against a tricky player that could have TT hoping to fold out your KK/A9s then you have to be calling the raise more

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I'm still a bit confused but I guess I need to call more.

From reading all the SS posts I've found that I go to showdown to often with hands I shouldn't be. I guess this isn't a spot to fold.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I would be tempted to check raise the flop, and bet/fold the turn. I can see a TAG playing KK/QQ like this since you've shown no aggression.

I would put him on KK, and that he thinks you have QQ since the UTG raise and no cap pf, and no aggression throughout the hand.

Against the raise on the river, I think I would call and cry when he turns over AK-AJs. Is there less than 10% chance he has KK/QQ?

Why don't we check/call the river for a showdown instead?

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I didn't want to let villain check behind should he have KK or QQ.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

CDC's favorite worthy cc,cc,bet topic has him saying he generally calls a river raise.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

Does the check/call, check/call, bet/fold line feel like I'm giving up the whole pot in an attempt to squeeze out an extra bet?

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I do not understand why you would "almost always lose in this spot". The hero hit the set, there is no flush or straight possibility. You said that your opponent seemed to be TAG, so he probably would not be 3-betting 55, 66, A5 or A6. Even if he has JJ or a better Ace, you should call if it's only one bet in this reasonably nice pot. I do not understand why you would fold when you just made trips. Why even bother going to the river if you are going to fold even when you make your hand?

To me this looks like the villain had TT-AA, or AJ-AK. (according to your reads). You checked on the flop and the turn, indicating weakness. I would personally have bet into you since most people would bet when they have top pair on a ragged flop, and that is probably what the villain did as well. You may be beat, but since you've already called down to the river, why not just throw in one more BB to find out?

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

Given your read and the play of the hand I would have check-called on the end.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

when a 2/4 tight player raises the river, IMO TT-KK become far less likely

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I would say this could be a good fold at 15/30 or 30/60 vs a very good player that you know very well. I would not fold this at a 2/4 game though.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

It's not so much a bad fold, as it is a bad river bet to begin with.

For instance, after you were raised on the end, if someone brought me in and gave me the choice between calling the raise or folding, I would be likely to choose folding as the +EV play.

BUT, if someone brought me in on the river, before any of the action, I would have choosen check-calling as the best play.

First of all there's the psychological factor. It's just not mentally fun or healthy for me to have to lay down trips with a decent kicker for one bet on the end (after I'm raised).

Addtionally... by checking he might value bet a lower pocket pair, seeing the two aces and figuring you're less likely to have one.

But when you bet he's very unlikely to raise with anything that you beat. Plus he might be able to get away from a hand he otherwise might have value bet on the end.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I'm convinced that bet/calling this river is the right play.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain seems TAG.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Yes?

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No. To TAG, this looks too much like a feeble bluff attempt. An aggressive TAG might raise KK/QQ figuring his hand is still best. A smart TAG just calls with those hands because a 3-bet would absolutely suck.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

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I would say this could be a good fold at 15/30 or 30/60 vs a very good player that you know very well. I would not fold this at a 2/4 game though.

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they may recognize the line and raise a worse hand if you have folded in the past.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

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It's not so much a bad fold, as it is a bad river bet to begin with.

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This is the perfect time to bet this hand. A hand like kings or queens may have been betting into you the entire time and will check behind if you bet. Especially against a tag you need to bet the river. I would definitely call this raise though.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

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I do not understand why you would fold when you just made trips. Why even bother going to the river if you are going to fold even when you make your hand?



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I've had this said to me a couple times now, and I would have to agree. You went this far, you got one of the two cards you were hoping to get. If you got what you wanted, why fold for 1BB?

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

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I do not understand why you would fold when you just made trips. Why even bother going to the river if you are going to fold even when you make your hand?



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I've had this said to me a couple times now, and I would have to agree. You went this far, you got one of the two cards you were hoping to get. If you got what you wanted, why fold for 1BB?

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this card didn't improve his hand. try this:

1. list every hand (here in a new post) he was behind to on the turn that he now beats thanks to this river card.

2. ok, now cross-check this list with what you think villian would 3-bet PF with

3. list the results

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

I'd call, but I expect to lose like all the time.

I think the fold is OK.

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

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No. To TAG, this looks too much like a feeble bluff attempt. An aggressive TAG might raise KK/QQ figuring his hand is still best. A smart TAG just calls with those hands because a 3-bet would absolutely suck.

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Exactly. An aggressive TAG thinks that that second A helped his hand by making it less likely that you've got the A. He might think you have TT or QQ or KK. Moreover, if he's not a 2+2er, he might not recognize the line and think that it's sheninigans (sp). etc etc

Re: Normally I\'d Call But I Call Down Too Much
 

[grunch]

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Yes?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

You're playing WA/WB, but I'm not sure that's appropriate against a TAG (especially just "seems" TAG...what's backing that up?). You've gotta find a raise in here, either on the flop or the turn. I'd probably go for it on the turn, once the flush/straight draws are pretty much dead.

[/grunch]