K8s MP overlimp
 

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

I've been running over the table, but only showed down good hands. UTG+2 and MP1 are loose, passive and weak, CO is unknown. Preflop is obviously debatable, but postflop...?

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

why not raise PF and idolate the two weak limpers?

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

Did you mean idolize?

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

If he is an unknown then he probably doesn't know you've been showing very good hands?
However this defenitley doesn't seem like a board where he'd wait till the turn to raise an overpair, and most players aren't going to raise a mid-pp pf with that many limpers. I think if he raises you here it's a frustrated bluff, do you think you could threebet (assuming all others fold)?

I realize you're a very good player, and I almost hate to post this as it seems like a chip spewing play from a player whose last attempt at a tricky play got flamed on here...
Personally from the range of hands I'd put him on here at the turn, if he raises you can push him off the better hand. But maybe I'm a lagtard :-D

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

Gag. Preflop is awful, game is too aggressive to leave any players behind with this hand.

Betting out on the flop will clean up some outs but the math is long to see if it's really that worthwhile, at first glance i'd imagine it is worthwhile.

On the turn it's a pointless beat with bad equity.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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I realize you're a very good player

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Hmm... that realization hasn't come to me yet!

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If he is an unknown then he probably doesn't know you've been showing very good hands?

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He was unknown in the sense that I hadn't seen him play many hands. He was there to see my play for the last 4 orbits. I assumed him a tight decent player.

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However this defenitley doesn't seem like a board where he'd wait till the turn to raise an overpair, and most players aren't going to raise a mid-pp pf with that many limpers. I think if he raises you here it's a frustrated bluff, do you think you could threebet (assuming all others fold)?

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Good observation. I was thinking the exact same at the time and it seems that my immidiate table image would make this a viable play.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

I'm a big fan of the K8s overlimp, but you might be a little too early positionally here. I also don't like the flop bet, if the pfr raises you it is awful. It kills your odds on your draws and your K might be no good. I'd much rather check, have the pfr bet, get a couple calls and now feel good calling with some draws and maybe your K is good.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

I also like the overlimp.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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On the turn it's a pointless beat with bad equity.

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I believe fold equity alone makes it a bet and the 4 on the turn is a perfect card for me!

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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On the turn it's a pointless beat with bad equity.

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I believe fold equity alone makes it a bet and the 4 on the turn is a perfect card for me!

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CO will rarely ever fold.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

loose passive players in first position could def have an 8 which will be unlikely to call two cold.

shrug, the math is long and boring.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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CO will rarely ever fold.

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Think about it from CO's perspective!

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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I also don't like the flop bet, if the pfr raises you it is awful. It kills your odds on your draws and your K might be no good

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I think a flopraise from CO gives me more reason to believe my K is good than not!

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

You guys must really have an edge post flop.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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CO will rarely ever fold.

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Think about it from CO's perspective!

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Yes you are right he should fold but they almost never do is the problem!

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

You are probably right, but it also makes it twice as expensive for you to draw to your ten outs to ... something.

As for your original post, if a turn bet really does have the right folding equity against CO and UTG+2 then go ahead and fire, but I think its very unlikely that UTG+2 is folding any pair.

More to the point, the only way over calling with K8 sooted in that spot is correct, is if the others players are predictable/passive enough for you be able to 1) pick up pots like these and 2) recognize when you can pick up pots like these.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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CO will rarely ever fold.

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Think about it from CO's perspective!

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Yes you are right he should fold but they almost never do is the problem!

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... plus UTG+2 isn't going anywhere if s/he has a pair.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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CO will rarely ever fold.

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Think about it from CO's perspective!

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Yeah, how would CO play 88-TT... POP!

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

I think it's important to realize that the decision how to play the turn has to be made on the flop in this hand. If you decide to check you give up on most of your fold equity. A reason to bet the flop is the fold equity, but then you have to follow up on the turn.

I know that nobody folds a pair on this turn, but there is absolutely no indication that anybody has a pair and to play from that assumption is just to defensive. Particularly when the 2 limpers has a history of calling the flop and folding the turn. If I get raised on flop or turn it costs me 1-2sb's more than calling to the river and I can easily find that in the times I take the pot down uncontested.

It should also be noted that I have added fold equity from running good. People tend to play a little weaker against you, when you are running good and that should be exploited.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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Particularly when the 2 limpers has a history of calling the flop and folding the turn.

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Rather important bit of information.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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CO will rarely ever fold.

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Think about it from CO's perspective!

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What's the point, he doesn't play the same as me. He's thinking about it how he thinks about it, not how i think about it.

Which is 'I have 6 outs and decent odds, hell, he may have a crazy draw' he is not thinking 'i at best have 6 outs but my outs may not be good so thus i need more than 7:1 here and it's unlikely he has a draw here because there aren't many limping hands that have a draw here'.

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

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CO will rarely ever fold.

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Think about it from CO's perspective!

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What's the point, he doesn't play the same as me. He's thinking about it how he thinks about it, not how i think about it.

Which is 'I have 6 outs and decent odds, hell, he may have a crazy draw' he is not thinking 'i at best have 6 outs but my outs may not be good so thus i need more than 7:1 here and it's unlikely he has a draw here because there aren't many limping hands that have a draw here'.

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Are you just making this up as you go along?

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

Does anyone ever think about C/R this flop to represent...sometimes i do. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: K8s MP overlimp
 

You guys act like the normal 30/60 player is just a normal 5/10 Party fish that will chase his overcards to the river and even call the river with them. If so, then there can't be a need to post any 30/60 hands at all because the game must be so easy. Since I don't believe that for one second, I think that rigoletto definitely has some fold equity. I would guess players will fold Ace high here without any other draw maybe 1/3 of the time here, especially players that just call the flop. The real clowns all auto raise their AK and AQ on the flop when they get bet into. I think CO will either fold his ace high or raise his monster (Set or AA or KK) most of the time here.