3 part preflop quiz
 

Here's the situation (9-handed):

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with two cards.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero ?

Assume opponents with reasonable raising and 3-betting standards. Original raiser will only cap with AA, KK and AKs. What do you do if you hold:

a) QJs?
b) A5s?
c) 55?

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

A) Call
B) Fold
C) Fold

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

QJs-Call
A5s-it's close but i'd probally fold
55-easy call

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

If our opponents have reasonable standards and the game's this aggressive why are we playing A5s and 55 from EP to begin with?

QJs is an easy call. Not sure about the other two. The pot's sure to be 5 or 6 handed and we're getting pretty good odds.

I call with all 3.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

Aggh, I was too lazy for the math. I guess you're getting more than enough odds (9:1 assuming everyone else calls?) on your money to catch a set of 5's, much less your implied odds.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I fold hands B and C preflop.

With QJs it looks like it's going to be multiway, and the cards that make someone else top pair could give me a big draw. I call.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I drool when i think of an Ax5 flop when i hold 55. I may be wrong here, but i like to call here.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

Call
Call
Call

Anyone who says fold 55 here is not thinking about this right.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

Two are fairly easy calls IMHO, but I'm not sure about A5s.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I think QJs and 55 are easy calls. A5s is closer. I'd want to be pretty sure that everyone else in the hand was along for the ride before I pushed the call button.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the situation (9-handed):

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with two cards.
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero ?

Assume opponents with reasonable raising and 3-betting standards. Original raiser will only cap with AA, KK and AKs. What do you do if you hold:

a) QJs?
b) A5s?
c) 55?

[/ QUOTE ]

fold most of the time
fold always
call always

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
If our opponents have reasonable standards and the game's this aggressive why are we playing A5s and 55 from EP to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two people happened to pick up big hands. It happens every once in a while, even at passive games.

I have no clue why anyone would fold either of these hands preflop.

Before really digesting other's opinions, I fold QJs and A5s, and I call with 55. My reasoning is that with the 55 hand my hand is usually very defined on the flop and I don't care if it gets capped behind me preflop. With the other two hands, I don't want any more bets going in preflop, and I may partially connect with the flop and put more bets in to find out where I am. I'll end up with a lot more second best hands with A5s or QJs than I will with 55.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

All of them are easy calls with these pot odds. You need to be carefull not to be trapped with A5s if an ace flops

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

B is a fold, and C is a call for me, but I have a (possibly stupid) question regarding QJs.

I know there's the possibility of flopping a monster draw, and the pot looks like its going multiway, but on all streets we'll be stuck between BB and MP2, which could make any draws very expensive. Does our reletive position here, and the fact that the BB three bet out of a blind rather than from late poosition, influence whether this hand is a call or not?

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

A5s sucks up front in aggressive games. Axs is good in loose passive microlimit games, but it's one of the more overrated hands in holdem, IMO

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]

I know there's the possibility of flopping a monster draw, and the pot looks like its going multiway, but on all streets we'll be stuck between BB and MP2, which could make any draws very expensive. Does our reletive position here, and the fact that the BB three bet out of a blind rather than from late poosition, influence whether this hand is a call or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

outstanding analysis. yes it does

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know there's the possibility of flopping a monster draw, and the pot looks like its going multiway, but on all streets we'll be stuck between BB and MP2, which could make any draws very expensive. Does our reletive position here, and the fact that the BB three bet out of a blind rather than from late poosition, influence whether this hand is a call or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's actually a good point on the relative position.
As for the 3-bettor, I don't think we care that much about his position and how strong his hand is likely to be. We're probably dominated by fewer typical 3-betting hands than we are raising hands anyway; and QJs is basically a drawing hand regardless.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

call
fold
call

i can't really see this being all that debateable (a5s is extremely lacklustre for 2-3 more back to you - while 55 and qjs have great implied odds in this situation)

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I'm new to all this, but isn't a 3-bet a "raise"? Why would you say:

[ QUOTE ]
We're probably dominated by fewer typical 3-betting hands than we are raising hands anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely agree with the relative position not being good. Say we flop a decent board for our QJs, BB bets - we are on nothing except draws to potential straights/flush, we call or raise, MP raises or 3-bets, BB 3-bets or caps: faced with 2 back to us. We call? We fold? Turn is blank for us, but...
This relative position is a great point I think.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I said fold 55 in the first place, and A5s too. Of course if your'e already in your stuck.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

Call
Call - weak kicker, but wheel is a potential. Making this better than A6s or A7s, IMHO.
Call

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

call
fold
fold

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm new to all this, but isn't a 3-bet a "raise"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I pondered making up the term "2-bet" for clarity purposes, but decided against it.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
I said fold 55 in the first place, and A5s too. Of course if your'e already in your stuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't try to limp in with 55 here?

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

Fold
Fold
Call

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

Well at best, you are getting 16:2 or 8:1 here. Absolute worst you could get (if MP1 folds, the button folds and MP2 caps) would be 16:3 or 5.3:1.

So even in the worst case, you should call with 55 since you are getting good enough curret + implied odds. Let's take a look at QJs.

Trips+ = 1.45%
2-pair = 2.02%
Striaght + Straight Draw (flop is not monotone and not two of your suit) = 1.04% + 7.8%
Flush + Flush Draw = .84% + 10.94%

Total = ~ 24%

You are getting more then enough to call with QJs here. You will flop a money making hand about one time in four. Now A5s.

Trips+ + 2pair = 3.47%
Straight + Striaght Draw = .26% + .52%
Flush + Flush Draw = 11.78%

Total = 16%

Now you are getting about 5.25:1 to flop something big, so that looks to be enough to take a flop here.

Brad

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I'm calling all of these.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call
Call
Call

Anyone who says fold 55 here is not thinking about this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Think about it this way....

You limp A5s UTG and UTG+1 raises. Everyone else folds. I bet that you make this call everytime getting just 4:1. If you make that call, calling in this spot is a no brainer.

Brad

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call
Call
Call

Anyone who says fold 55 here is not thinking about this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Think about it this way....

You limp A5s UTG and UTG+1 raises. Everyone else folds. I bet that you make this call everytime getting just 4:1. If you make that call, calling in this spot is a no brainer.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

hey-
i don't think that direct analogy is correct - because we're thinking about implied odds here when calling multiple bets. i know you already know this, but i'm just pointing it out for everyone else:

If you have Axs in EP and limp and someone behind raises, and everyone folds, yes - you call getting 4:1. But when we are calling 2 more prelop in the original case, even though the immediate pot odds are, say 8:1, they are actually 16:2, which means if we are short on odds we have to make up double the number of SBs... (though i'm not saying we shouldn't call - in fact, i'm not sure why i'm posting this...)

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I was gonna post something similar, cool shite

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call
Call
Call

Anyone who says fold 55 here is not thinking about this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Think about it this way....

You limp A5s UTG and UTG+1 raises. Everyone else folds. I bet that you make this call everytime getting just 4:1. If you make that call, calling in this spot is a no brainer.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

hey-
i don't think that direct analogy is correct - because we're thinking about implied odds here when calling multiple bets. i know you already know this, but i'm just pointing it out for everyone else:

If you have Axs in EP and limp and someone behind raises, and everyone folds, yes - you call getting 4:1. But when we are calling 2 more prelop in the original case, even though the immediate pot odds are, say 8:1, they are actually 16:2, which means if we are short on odds we have to make up double the number of SBs... (though i'm not saying we shouldn't call - in fact, i'm not sure why i'm posting this...)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right that if we're short on odds pre-flop and have to call two bets here we have to make up more bets later. But IMO that is countered by the fact we have multiple opponents and thus more opportunity to get more bets in post-flop. Plus with the pretty good (perceived) odds we're getting post-flop, I don't think we have to make up much on later streets.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[posting in the dark]

I'm coming in a little late here, but I muck QJs and A5s. 55 will be fine if we hit our set. A5s would be going for the flush only - too expensive. The high-card value of QJs just went out the window with a raise and then 3-bet from the BB.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[posting in the dark]

I'm coming in a little late here, but I muck QJs and A5s. 55 will be fine if we hit our set. A5s would be going for the flush only - too expensive. The high-card value of QJs just went out the window with a raise and then 3-bet from the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with two-pair, trips and straight?

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Shill.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

Yeah exactly, even if you are sure that someone has a big hand. Combatting aces with something like QJs isn't all that bad of a proposition since our equity will be high if we flop a big draw. The hands that you really need to avoid playing (even getting 8:1) are things like AJo. You have little chance of making a straight, can't flop a flush or flush draw and are almost surely dominated from all sides (your only hope is to make trip jacks).

Brad

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

call, call, call. All three hands can easily crack the hands we're afraid of. A5s is marginal but I still call it hoping to flop a decent draw. Implied odds are very strong in these situations.

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

DMBFan23 can you give me some insight into why you think Axs is such an overrated hand. I play mainly 1/2 6max and I tend to play them a lot.

I just recently began folding A4s - A2s in early position, but its hard for me still. Not sure why, I guess I like the flush possibilities.

Should I always fold these hands against a raise? Do they play better against many limpers or does that matter? I think they have some good equity considering flush, top pair can win, 2 pair possiblities. Is it just a math game, figuring my equity, against money in the pot, or money expected to make it to the pot?

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call
Call
Call

Anyone who says fold 55 here is not thinking about this right.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Think about it this way....

You limp A5s UTG and UTG+1 raises. Everyone else folds. I bet that you make this call everytime getting just 4:1. If you make that call, calling in this spot is a no brainer.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

hey-
i don't think that direct analogy is correct - because we're thinking about implied odds here when calling multiple bets. i know you already know this, but i'm just pointing it out for everyone else:

If you have Axs in EP and limp and someone behind raises, and everyone folds, yes - you call getting 4:1. But when we are calling 2 more prelop in the original case, even though the immediate pot odds are, say 8:1, they are actually 16:2, which means if we are short on odds we have to make up double the number of SBs... (though i'm not saying we shouldn't call - in fact, i'm not sure why i'm posting this...)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right that if we're short on odds pre-flop and have to call two bets here we have to make up more bets later. But IMO that is countered by the fact we have multiple opponents and thus more opportunity to get more bets in post-flop. Plus with the pretty good (perceived) odds we're getting post-flop, I don't think we have to make up much on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. in the case of the OP, we aren't short on odds, and you are correct that we have multiple opponents and a high likelyhood of making back a ton of bets (ie, getting lots of action if we hit).

i was just being dogmatic and pointing out that when calling multiple bets preflop, we can't just always reduce our immediate pot odds and assume we are close enough if we are short since we need to account for double the bets...

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

well in 6 max games things are a little different, for example in MP3 in a full ring game I'm probably opening with A5s+, which is kind of the same as being UTG+1 in 6max - but I'm usually raising it to knock out LP players and maybe steal blinds.

I almost always muck Axs to a raise (we're talking about crappy x's here), but versus a raise and some loose coldcallers you can see a flop sometimes if you're on the button and enough players have come in.

I find they play best in loose games, where you will get paid out the yin yang with flush draws, but can still make a decent pair/2pair as a fallback - that's what seperates them from hands like 73s.

I just find that at 3/6 I am too often dominated, and unless you're likely to get multiway action you're check folding a lot of flops and not getting paid as much on the good ones, and you're often heads up or 3 way in a raised pot where even if you do have the best hand with A high, he has position and initiative and might have you dominated anyway.

in loose passive games, you'll get charged less when behind and make more when youre ahead - having more players in to contribute to your flush draw is straight bling, so they become pretty good at like .5/1 or at some 1/2 6max games

Re: 3 part preflop quiz
 

I call all of these.

But just to play devil's advocate for a second, I haven't seen anyone post about the fact that with a raise, a coldcall and a 3-bet after you there a very very very likely chance that you're dominated when your holding QJ or A5. It's also very very likely that some cards you need are already in your opponents hands, therefore serverly reducing the odds of flopping what you need. Finally, someone mentioned that we're way out of position, which is also something to really take into consideration. With all these factors, I don't think calling with QJ or A5 are easy calls by any means.

(Edited to make sense)