KK 15/30 at Stars
 

Im in a 9-handed PokerStars 15/30 game, find K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in UTG+1. I raise. Two midpos callers. Small Blind calls.

Flop 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I bet, midpos raise, small blind bets three. After taking a little bit of time, I am not able to put both of them on a worse hand than mine. I fold. But deep inside i feel a bit weak.

Anyone support me - or strongly disagree?

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

I can put them on hands you beat, but there are a lot more hands you don't beat. Plus, there are lots of cards that will beat you on the turn and river if you aren't already I beat. You really have no redraws, so I think it was a prudent fold.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

I don't find a fold on the flop. Here are a couple of possibles, just pulled them out of the air:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=951789
pokenum -h ks kd - - th td - - 6h 7h -- 5h 8h 7c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 7c 8h 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kd 265 29.35 629 69.66 9 1.00 0.297
Td Th 86 9.52 808 89.48 9 1.00 0.099
7h 6h 543 60.13 351 38.87 9 1.00 0.605

pokenum -h ks kd - - th td - - 6h ah -- 5h 8h 7c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 7c 8h 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kd 291 32.23 603 66.78 9 1.00 0.326
Td Th 73 8.08 821 90.92 9 1.00 0.084
Ah 6h 530 58.69 364 40.31 9 1.00 0.590

Of course you could be in jail:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=951793
pokenum -h ks kd - - 7s 7d - - 6h ah -- 5h 8h 7c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 7c 8h 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kd 37 4.10 848 93.91 18 1.99 0.048
7s 7d 493 54.60 392 43.41 18 1.99 0.553
Ah 6h 355 39.31 530 58.69 18 1.99 0.400

I guess one thing to consider is how likely is it midposition raiser has an overpair to the board but an underpair to you.

Also, aggression levels of players seems very important.

No definitive answer here.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

I'm not folding if all you can tell me about them is that they coldcalled in MP.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

nice fold, limit hold'em sucks they always have you beat

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

Fold looks good to me without reads. What did they have?

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

strongly disagree. there are more hands here that you beat than those you dont beat.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

Very weak fold! I have a hard time putting them on hands that beat you, which hands did you have in mind.

If you make a habit of folding a big overpair to a flop 3-bet, even on a scary board, you will be giving up on a lot of EV.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

That's a fine example of a typical weak/tight play.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

I have to agree there are alot of hands that you can beat. the hands that have you drawing near dead are 69 or 46, I don't think you can put any one on those hands just yet especially the middle position player. There also are alot of draws that these guys could have and if a blank hits on the turn you will be the favorite to win the pot. So the hands you are afraid of are two pair and trips. With two pair you are getting correct odds to atleast call and as far as trips I think you need to get more info to suffieciently put someone on trips. I would cap if I were you, that will push the middle position player out as he would have call two bets cold and give you position against the small blind. It will also define your hand as an overpair and not two overcards as they might have been thinking. If the middle position player calls he has you beat or is at least on a good flush draw. On the turn if the small blind bets into you can now maybe think about throwing it awaying depending on what hit on the turn. I say play the flop aggressive and if they continue to show agression on the turn then you can fold. Really they could easily just be putting you on over cards here and think that they have you beat. Do you have any reads on the players? So what actually happen?

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

Its real close, but I suppose I would lean towards calling or possibly capping. Middle position could be raising with just about anything. Small blind has at least a pair or a good draw.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

I'd cap and see what comes on the turn.

Anyone with 2 hearts or a 6 will be raising/reraising that flop.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

Definately weak tight, especially on-line, but its not as bad as some are suggesting. Lots of cards can come to kill your hand, but you sill have two more streets to fold.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

You dont need to put them both on a worse hand than yours. It may not logically make sense what they both have. That being said, I think it is close. There are a lot of redraws against you if you are ahead. I think you should call the flop(to also see if the flop raiser caps), but to see what the action is on the turn. On a blank, I would consider a turn raise.

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
Definately weak tight, especially on-line, but its not as bad as some are suggesting. Lots of cards can come to kill your hand, but you sill have two more streets to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to be able to fold on more than one street, you'd have to be playing with your self, which is either unethical - or plain filthy [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

RESULTS
 

Thanks for all the replies... I had folded the best hand!

Turn came a scary 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Check bet-raise-call. River K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Midpos-player showed up 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - and small blind took home the pot with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Re: Similar Hand
 

Do you fight on with this or am I to weak tight?

PP 10/20 I am SB K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG limp, fold, EMP calls, fold, fold, cutoff raise, button folds, I 3bet, BB folds, everybody calls.

Flop:8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, Utg calls, EMP raise, Cutoff 3 bets, I fold.

Player info:

UTG 35/9/1.2 SDWON 41%
EMP 45/8/1.1 SDWON 45%
Cutoff 16/12/2.4 SDWON 52%

KK small Blind
 

I posted this along with someone else's similar post earlier and it got burried. Looking for some thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you fight on with this or am I to weak tight?

PP 10/20 I am SB K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG limp, fold, EMP calls, fold, fold, cutoff raise, button folds, I 3bet, BB folds, everybody calls.

Flop:8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, Utg calls, EMP raise, Cutoff 3 bets, I fold.

Player info:

UTG 35/9/1.2 SDWON 41%
EMP 45/8/1.1 SDWON 45%
Cutoff 16/12/2.4 SDWON 52%

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Similar Hand
 

Here's when it gets tricky. Either one of them could have a flush draw, or a straight, CO could have lots of possible hands here. Either he already made his set or he's playing it real strong with TT/JJ/QQ/AA. Depending on your read on his previous plays, I guess folding isn't bad since the turn and river could cost you a ton and you have to call 2-cold indicating someone has a real had here against your KK. I'll probably check this and see what develops, the board has too many draws. If the turn card is blank or helps my K high flush, I'm betting out and calling to a raise and folding on the river. His turn raise has to incidcate a set or AA with a flush. If he's real aggressive and will play TT the same way then calling would be an option. Any thoughts?

Re: Similar Hand
 

I've noticed that people go absolutely crazy with relatively weak holdings on a two-flush board. It seems like everyone thinks that everyone else is semi-bluffing so you get QJ and AJ raising and 3-betting here. Sure, it is possible that one of them actually has the draw, or that the CO (who raises EVERY TIME HE ENTERS A POT) has AA, but it doesn't happen often enough to make this a fold. This hand, like Lars' hand is a cap or call.

CSC

Re: Similar Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's when it gets tricky. Either one of them could have a flush draw, or a straight, CO could have lots of possible hands here. Either he already made his set or he's playing it real strong with TT/JJ/QQ/AA. Depending on your read on his previous plays, I guess folding isn't bad since the turn and river could cost you a ton and you have to call 2-cold indicating someone has a real had here against your KK. I'll probably check this and see what develops, the board has too many draws. If the turn card is blank or helps my K high flush, I'm betting out and calling to a raise and folding on the river. His turn raise has to incidcate a set or AA with a flush. If he's real aggressive and will play TT the same way then calling would be an option. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that hero has KK don't you?

Re: Similar Hand
 

KK is very powerful indeed but after the flop those stats changes so you'll have to readjust your play depending on what flops. After reading the tread over again, I don't think CO does have a big pair since he would have capped it, he had position too. AA/QQ/JJ/TT is probably out of the question. He could have mid pair, 88/99,TT(doubt it) or AJ with the A being a club which is why he's 3-betting on the flop hoping to take you out if all you had was overcards like AK.

Without knowing if CO will raise again, betting out would be standard to eliminate draws. Once you get a caller, raiser, and a 3-bet which comes back 2cold to you I'll probably just call here. Capping here will not get you much value since you have two loose players chasing draws.

1)If the turn card is a club I'm betting out, if I get raised by someone else either than the CO I'm calling once. If I'm 3-bet, its an auto fold.

2)If its a trash hand I'm going to check and raise the CO to make the other two cold-call. If CO 3-bets me I'm folding unless he's super aggressive postflop.

3)If CO raises again after a club comes your probably looking for an Ac or a set.

Any thoughts on these?

Re: Similar Hand
 

This is almost the exact same situation as the previous post, I would cap and bet the turn if you get reraised on the turn then you can start thinking about folding otherwise you are playing this too passive

Re: KK 15/30 at Stars
 

Next time you feel a little weak, don't fold. I would call and lead a blank-ish turn and go from there.