25/50 vs. good players
 

5 handed, LAG opens, good player calls, good player calls, they both have about 2.5k left after the calls. i have 4s 5s and call in the blinds 4 way. flop is 8s 9s Jh, check, pfr checks, good/tight player bets 750, good player calls, i go all in.

i think they will give me respect, but they are not wackos betting and calling with air

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

Very draw heavy board. They should be good enough to figure out that you're pushing a draw here some fraction of the time. There's a lot money in there, and they could have decent pair + draw/combo draw with odds to call you. Not to mention they could have sets or two pair hands. Whether they give you credit for the nut straight is up in the air, but even if they do, they may think they have odds to call you with whatever they have. I see one or both villians calling with pair + flush draw, or pair + straight draw, in addition to sets and possibly top two pair. I think you're getting overpairs and TPTK type hands to lay down, but there's still a ton of crap they could call you with. If they call with pair + straight draw type hands you're not in terrible shape but if either one has something like JsTs obviously they're not mucking and you're screwed.

I'm not a big fan of this play, especially with that caller on the button.

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

On the plus side if they're good players they might note that the flat call of the raise didn't put you off you're CR and therefore figure you for a monster hand which could bump up your fold equity. That said I spose you wanted either both in on both to fold provided your flush draw was good.

All in all I'm not a big fan, most likely result is that either both call with one holding either a set or a higher flush draw which puts you in trouble or one folds and the other calls which I don't think gives you the pot odds. What I'm trying to say is that either you'll get two big hands that its virtually impossible to suck out on or you'll only get one biug hand which you can draw out on but arn't getting the odds to do so.

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

is this a metagame thing?

i sortof agree that this isnt the best board as it hits people s possible hands to well BUT perhaps you push sets really hard on coordinated draw heavy boards also to protect yourself or to avoid action killing turn cards?

then the all in makes sense on mulitple levels i think

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

during the hand all i remember thinking was that i was glad i checked so i could be letting results sway me a bit but i think you will just about never get them both to fold in this spot. much of the time it wont be a big deal and youll have a live flush draw and it wont really matter and occasionally you will be virtually dead. i think good player #1 doesnt bet 1/3 of his stack into that flop with a ton of hands he will fold and im not sure if there are any hands good player #2 can have here that would fold.

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

[ QUOTE ]
5 handed, LAG opens, good player calls, good player calls, they both have about 2.5k left after the calls. i have 4s 5s and call in the blinds 4 way. flop is 8s 9s Jh, check, pfr checks, good/tight player bets 750, good player calls, i go all in.

i think they will give me respect, but they are not wackos betting and calling with air

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes sense if both of them call (without a bigger flush draw) or if both of them fold, and to set up later plays.

One caller = I think it's -EV

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

so basically if you are called you have 9 outs to a 5 high flush? imo the check-raise push on the flop looks a little sketchy, and if i had a hand like QJ or KJ or even a higher flush draw here i would probably call you, what was your stack after preflop?

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

i like you play in general..im no big fan of it in this particular hand though, The biggest problem is that one of them could hold a higherflush draw and the other a made hand in which case you are dead.

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

calling the checkraise/push with QJ or KJ would be really bad agaisnt any sane 25/50 NLTH player.

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

How's the gf search coming?

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling the checkraise/push with QJ or KJ would be really bad agaisnt any sane 25/50 NLTH player.

[/ QUOTE ]

yet in this case it wouldnt, but it depends on stack sizes. (i'd be more inclined to call with the Qs however)

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

cwl i agree with what you said. first player had AJ, second player had T7 they both called

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

of course the most important question: did you hit the flush?

=)

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

surprised DaWiz called with AJ with a caller behind and your push, even if he was short stacked. have you bluffed him hard often?

i would've folded 54s preflop for 5% of the lesser stack out of position. also would've folded on the flop, though as it worked out you were liking your chances a lot.

matt

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

yah i was surprised dawiz called with AJ there, i don't do anything crazy vs. him either, he always wants to see a showdown vs. me for some reason. as to folding the flop i was getting 3:1 which practically gives me pot odds to call, then with implied odds and a possible higher flush draw seems to balance out and be pretty close...?

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

[ QUOTE ]
yah i was surprised dawiz called with AJ there, i don't do anything crazy vs. him either, he always wants to see a showdown vs. me for some reason. as to folding the flop i was getting 3:1 which practically gives me pot odds to call, then with implied odds and a possible higher flush draw seems to balance out and be pretty close...?

[/ QUOTE ]

if one knew there was no higher flush draw yes. otherwise seems pretty thin to me with a reasonable second caller.

matt

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

Did you consider folding?

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

Hi Danny,

I really don't like this push unless you think there's a good chance that both of them will call. They can see the big drawing possibilities, and can therefore put you on a big draw; with 1800 behind and a bloated pot, they're calling with lots of just pretty good hands (like the AJ that actually called). But, I'm not suggesting you fold; 3 to 1 is pretty good on the flop. I think this is a spot to try the call/push all in on any turn card (possibly excepting a J). It obviously wouldn't have worked this time against the 2nd nuts, but it's harder to call with, say, 2 pair on the turn. A Ten would be the ideal card in my mind to try this with. Or, if you don't like it, you can check-fold on the turn if you miss.

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like this push unless you think there's a good chance that both of them will call.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this kind or board and action, you could be up against a made straight, a set, two pair, a higher flush draw plus a straight draw or plus a pair, etc. It's almost 2-1 against making the flush, and it might not be good anyway. What's wrong with a fold?

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

I think I will include this in my revised version of "Guide to NLHE Tournament Play" under the category "if you don't know what else to do, push."

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

This made me laugh out loud.

Re: 25/50 vs. good players
 

Hi betgo,

[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. The only thing wrong with it is that you have to wake up if they both fold. One of them is calling 1700 more, getting almost 3 to 1 and knowing Bruiser could be on a semi-bluff, was my point.

You have very little fold equity, so to make this work, you want both of them in, or you need to put some of the money in when you're ahead. Otherwise, it's effectively 2500 to win 4000, which is not good enough with a 5-high flush draw.