Someone owes me money
 

I've known a guy, "Adam" for about 8 months. He introduced me to the underground Toronto poker scene and basically has been fully prepared to front me money, upwards of $1500, to play. I have always been punctual about paying him back. We have a cordial relationship, he's helped me with my game, I've done the same with him.

One day, he asked to borrow, on behalf of someone else, "Jimmy", I barely know, a significant sum of money to help get him back on his feet after. It wasn't life-changing, as my bankroll was healthy at the time (and still is), but $5000 is significant and I do want it back. Adam vouched for Jimmy, who is apparently loaded but fallen on hard times, and promised to back the loan.

Jimmy drives a Mercedes SL500.

I've asked a couple times over the last 3 months and have always received an excuse... early on, when the loan hadn't been paid, he put me into a couple large tournaments at $250 a pop.

5 months have passed.

"We're waiting for an investment to come through."
"Jimmy owes other people as well and is remortgaging his house at the beginning of may"

I've confronted Jimmy, who has recently opened his own poker room. He gave me his phone number, and promised to have the money ready for me tonight.

I've called him today, he hasn't picked up the phone and has no answering machine.

Other things:

A good friend is helping Jimmy start up this room.

The original friend is a tournament director who basically runs every tournament in the city, tournaments I've been to and would like to go to again. Jimmy is also a member of the Italian community in Toronto. I don't know if that's in fact significant or not, but it might be.

I have a friend, "Peter", who is a pimp. like, a real live pimp. he's a good guy. however, he has a friend, "Greg" who basically handles all of his "loans". This ain't playin around. Greg has offered to help me recall the loan using whatever means I allow or prohibit.

My current plan is to show up tonight to Jimmy's club and if I'm not paid back, to give Greg a call, with the stipulation that he is not permitted to do anything that will get me or him in trouble with the law (Jimmy, of course, doesn't need to know that stipulation).

Any better suggestions?

Am I better off going after Adam?

I don't intend to lend $ this big ever again, that's for sure.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

I would be prepared to let it go before using your friend's "resources."

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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I would be prepared to let it go before using your friend's "resources."

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Even if I forbid him from doing anything violent that will endanger anyone's life?

Re: Someone owes me money
 

I would be prepared to let it go before using your friend's "resources."

screw that. you got ways to make this guy feel some pressure, use them. if he doesnt plan on paying you back he is treating you like a punk.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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Quote:
I would be prepared to let it go before using your friend's "resources."



Even if I forbid him from doing anything violent that will endanger anyone's life?

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Having a known "thug" intimidate someone can get sketchy. If the money isn't a big deal (obviously alot, but if you can deal with it) it might be better to just continue the pestering. It just dpends how you wanna play it.

Somehow figuring out a way for it to be communicated that this guy is ready to "help" you out seems like the best/least troublesome solution.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Have "Greg" kill "Jimmy's" dog. Call it even.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

step 1: watch three o'clock high.

step 2: reconsider plan to use the other guy for intimidation. if jimmy really is a member of the italian community, you might be in over your head trying to get some pimp's thug to get your money for you. also, isn't the pimp and/or thug going to want compensation for the "services?"

if you let jimmy, a member of the italian community, skate on the $5000 for a while, will he look upon it as a favor? maybe having him owe you a favor for a while will be worth the $5000.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Man... underground poker scene...italian community...loan sharks, pimps, Mercedes SL500. Your life is so much more interesting than mine.

Where can I get a refund?

KoW

Re: Someone owes me money
 

if you let jimmy, a member of the italian community, skate on the $5000 for a while, will he look upon it as a favor? maybe having him owe you a favor for a while will be worth the $5000.

I've thought about this.

One option is to play at his club without staking any of my own cash. i.e. buy in "on the sheet" and cash out for the full amount, charging the difference against the loan.

Seems a bit pussy to me though.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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if you let jimmy, a member of the italian community, skate on the $5000 for a while, will he look upon it as a favor? maybe having him owe you a favor for a while will be worth the $5000.

I've thought about this.

One option is to play at his club without staking any of my own cash. i.e. buy in "on the sheet" and cash out for the full amount, charging the difference against the loan.

Seems a bit pussy to me though.

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yeah there's no way i'd do this without his explicit ok. you can bet that he has other backers/partners in the club, and they will not be amused when you explain that jimmy owes you money so it's ok for you to just charge it to their investment.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you let jimmy, a member of the italian community, skate on the $5000 for a while, will he look upon it as a favor? maybe having him owe you a favor for a while will be worth the $5000.

I've thought about this.

One option is to play at his club without staking any of my own cash. i.e. buy in "on the sheet" and cash out for the full amount, charging the difference against the loan.

Seems a bit pussy to me though.

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perhaps, but that's also the easiest way to get the money, isn't it.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Seems to me you should hit up "Adam" for the money, since he is the one who borrowed it from you. Who cares if it was on behalf of someone else? If that someone else who he vouched for isn't getting the money back to you, it becomes his responsibility.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

I consider myself generally a decent guy (aside from the fact that I play poker for a living) but I can't see ever lending ANYONE money to play poker. There are only two possibilities:
1. They play well (in which case they are a fellow predator and why would you help them when there is only a limited amount of prey?)
2. They play poorly (in which case they are a bad risk for your money).

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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Seems to me you should hit up "Adam" for the money, since he is the one who borrowed it from you. Who cares if it was on behalf of someone else? If that someone else who he vouched for isn't getting the money back to you, it becomes his responsibility.

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Re: Someone owes me money
 

This money, while lent "at" poker, was not lent "for" poker.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Treat it like Adam owes you money, and play on the sheet.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

i have read the post again and the responses over. seems like this is the kinda guy who has the resources to pay you back. i would try and work out a deal, and take it from there.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Do you want to get into the loan-sharking business? If you do get Greg to put some pressure on Jimmy this is basically what you are doing.

If there is even the remotest of possibilities that Jimmy can apply pressure of his own are you willing to take it to the next level? Even if Greg can be trusted to take it easy what if Jimmy gets violent? Greg smacks him around some, Jimmy sues him and it comes back to you. Not a good scenario.

On the other hand, if you have other outstanding debts, are backing or planning to back other players you don't want a reputation of the guy who will allow himself to get screwed over when it comes to this kind of stuff.

All in all, quite the pickle you got yourself in there bub. Perhaps you should take this up with Adam, if you haven't already. Explain the situation and see what he can do about coming up with the money. If it was me I'd probably stay away from involving straight out criminals in this entire thing, that's for sure.

Also, please share with us whatever happens next, this stuff is like Rounders in real life!

Swede

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Adam has repeatedly passed off responsibility to jimmy.

Should jimmy not produce the money tonight, I will be confronting Azim with the suggestion that the money was lent to him, and that he would be expected to pay it back.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

We would be able to answer your question better if you gave us more details about this pimp friend of yours. Seriously, you are friends with a pimp?

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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We would be able to answer your question better if you gave us more details about this pimp friend of yours. Seriously, you are friends with a pimp?

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I don't see the relevance but yes.

He's not like fur hats and mink coats and gold chains.

He's a regular dude who made a lot of money in legitimate business. Now he basically has a stable of girls and he owns a bunch of houses they live in, and he takes in their rent and their "action".

You look at him and you don't think "wow that guy looks like kramer in that seinfeld episode", you just go "wow there's a big [censored] nigger". But he's just a normal dude. a good guy, drives a sweet ride, comes out to the bar and chills, and he's been a good buddy to my friends and - i mean, he offered Gregs services to me.

funny thing, is we don't talk about his business around him, and he doesn't like people knowing that's what he does. we also never mix business with friendship, if you get my drift. i don't hire that [censored] anyway.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

I think finding out how truly "connected" Jimmy is going to make your decision a lot easier.

Also, maybe he can't/won't pay in a lump sum because of actual financial commitments or has a big ego about it. Wouldn't setting up a payment plan be the easiest, non-violent approach? Or has this already been brought up between the two of you?

Re: Someone owes me money
 

payment plan

excellent idea.

i have no intentions of ever becoming a loan shark, but for those of you with experience, what is the likelihood given the history that the payment plan will be adhered to?

Re: Someone owes me money
 

sounds like you want your money and that's it. But like any business, reducing the # of payments is the best move for you. Be it 2-5 payments a week or month. I don't know. And you can probably gauge if this guy is serious or not on paying you back.

I'd be pretty accomdating because all i'd care about is MY MONEY and getting it back.

Of course, I'd like to see this fucker get his face beaten in and you take points on the money but that's not an option. My friend's dad is alledgely a loan shark/gambler and the one story I've heard being whispered around is scary. I'd avoid going down that path.

The fewer the payment plans the better. The more "connected" he is, the more creative I'd be willing to be w/his payment offers. You know like, freerolling twenty $250 tournies or something like that.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Being stuck $5k is not interesting IMO.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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payment plan

excellent idea.

i have no intentions of ever becoming a loan shark, but for those of you with experience, what is the likelihood given the history that the payment plan will be adhered to?

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given the history between you two, i'd say approaching 0%.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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payment plan

lisa needs braces. oh.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Wait it out, pester him nicely, play at his club if the action is decent and try to get paid piecemeal--and don't lend nearly so big again unless it is maybe a very close PERSONAL friend you have real confidence in.

Also, you can get in WAY over your head with the idea of having someone else try to collect for you.

If the guy opens this club and does OK at it he should certainly be able to repay you in bits. Five months isn't all that long anyhow. And maybe he really is refinancing his house.

Stay around and be visible and ask him at times (even for partial payments) and my guess is you will get paid eventually.

By the way, you probably don't know what connections Jimmy might have either. If he is opening his own underground poker room, his connections might conceivably be better than your pimp buddy's. If you try to play hardball at this point you could be making a big mistake. And do you think collectors work for free or something? Maybe this guy would, who knows. He might try to throw a scare into Jimmy. More on that below.

Anyway at minimum you might piss off someone who was going to pay you back over time. Just stick around and keep pestering him nicely but persistently. If he gives you a date in the near future to pay you all or some of it, don't ask him in between--give him that much courtesy too.

You can get so far over your head with what you are thinking of doing you have no idea. Just as an example both parties (debtor and collector) could agree to chop up YOUR money or something; who the hell are you to these guys anyway. Org crime types look at you as a potential sucker with nowhere to turn, and your pimp buddy is just a PEON. Understand that. If a guy higher up gets wind that some KID has that kind of money to be lending out (or to be robbed of, heh) they may scheme a way to get a lot more than that from you. When you get involved with those guys you can be so far over your head you have no idea. And a friggin' pimp is so far down the pecking ladder it is a joke.

Let me tell you something. If Jimmy is very tight with serious figures in Italian org crime (or maybe is in himself) and you send some friggin' pimp's goon to ask him for the money, that goon might be lucky to escape without a beating or worse. As might you and your pimp buddy.

Of course, nearly anything can be worked out with money. Your $5000 is a nice starting point for that approach, too.

On the other hand maybe Jimmy is a nobody and has no real serious connections. Do nobodies with no connections open underground poker clubs in your area? What do you really know? Very little it seems.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Hindsight's 20/20, but here's what I have to say:

Promisory Notes are good. Loaning people money directly is questionable, but better than loaning it to strangers. Therefore, lend Adam money, but don't lend Jimmy money, and write it down.

While you're at it, charging interest is good too... I think the going rate in t.o. is like 5 points for 4 days, probably compounded weekly. Consider the juice to be insurance for when you're not paid.

I think somewhere someone wrote (Scarnes on Poker?) that 50% of all gambling debts aren't paid. Seems to be reasonably accurate. Variance is a bitch.

Maintain friendship with Adam if you guys are really friends. No sense letting money screw up your friendship.

If you were to charge juice or use a collector, you could get in a ton of trouble. Lots. There's also a cost associated with using a collector, right?

Please note that this IS NOT AdamL (a poster on here in the toronto area who is my friend).

----

In my own experience, I lent someone $200-$300, no juice, no written agreement, which was a buy in at a local NLHE game, and they paid it back in full within the next few days. Still, too stressful, and I realized a few things:

1) To live off the juice, I'd have to have something like $10k out in the community at all times and have it being paid constantly. Not possible.

2) 200-300 was a significant portion of my weekly income and poker roll at the time. Not something I'd be happy about losing.

3) If I lent money to this person consistently, others would be more likely to ask, and it would be tough to refuse.

Shortly after this, I decided to stop lending people money.

All in all, I think that's the best policy...

However, most of the great poker players have been broke in the past... I don't know if this is really practical advice.

--Dave.

P.S. If by Italian Community, you mean Italian Mob, this is significant. Otherwise, fuggetaboutit. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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You look at him and you don't think "wow that guy looks like kramer in that seinfeld episode", you just go "wow there's a big [censored] nigger".

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No, that's probably NOT what a lot of us would say.

Sheesh.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

I believe you get your ass kicked saying something like that, man.

Swede

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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I believe you get your ass kicked saying something like that, man.

Swede

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really? that is how i greet every black man that i meet that is a 6 inches taller and has 50 lbs on me

some like it, others don't. i'm not really aware of reactions until i wake up in the hospital the day after.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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I believe you get your ass kicked saying something like that, man.

Swede

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Avoiding the usage of that word is +EV for so many reasons, only one of which is the threat of violence.

really? that is how i greet every black man that i meet that is a 6 inches taller and has 50 lbs on me

some like it, others don't. i'm not really aware of reactions until i wake up in the hospital the day after.

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Re: Someone owes me money
 

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big [censored] nigger".

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ahh, the irony.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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Let me tell you something. If Jimmy is very tight with serious figures in Italian org crime (or maybe is in himself) and you send some friggin' pimp's goon to ask him for the money, that goon might be lucky to escape without a beating or worse. As might you and your pimp buddy.



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This wouldnt have been nearly as funny had you not opened with "let me tell you something".

To OP: Never be stupid enough to lend to a friend of a friend. make it clear to your friend that you are lending him the money, and he can do what he wants with it, but he is responsible.

ps: canadian underground poker?

WTF....

go play some hockey whitey

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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Seems to me you should hit up "Adam" for the money, since he is the one who borrowed it from you. Who cares if it was on behalf of someone else? If that someone else who he vouched for isn't getting the money back to you, it becomes his responsibility.

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This is exactly what I was going to post. It seems to me maybe the two are possibly working together, you know good cop bad cop. I would be leaning heavily on Adam myself.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

Boy I don't know. $5k is near the breaking point where I would have a hard time walking away.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

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payment plan

lisa needs braces. oh.

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Awesome and obscure Simpson reference. Myself, I read this post and thought of Jimmy, the guy who refers to himself in the 3rd person on Seinfeld.

"Jimmy likes Elaine."

"Jimmy's going down!"

"Hands off Jimmy!!!! Don't touch Jimmy!!!"

Re: Someone owes me money
 

jeez.

people are a lot more uptight about racial relations in the states.

he calls me cracker/honky/sugar. i call him nigger. then we have a beer.

Re: Someone owes me money
 

If by Italian Community, you mean Italian Mob, this is significant. Otherwise, fuggetaboutit

I met the guy at tournaments in woodbridge, where italians frequent. rumours abound about certain people there but none of whom are this guy. he, however, is known within the community and i dont know if he is connected with those specific people.