I\'m a bit loose
 

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

Villain was about 35/9/.67

Anyone like this?

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

cr the turn.

Krishan

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

Why do you think CRing the turn is superior to this line?

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

well i just play 1/2,2/4 so this must be some super advanced higher limit concept that i dont get,
why call pf why call the flop?

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think CRing the turn is superior to this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you cr you either get someone with 6 outs to fold on the turn or win an extra bet on the river. This assumes the river doesn't kill you.

Are you folding to a raise presumably?

Krishan

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

Where's rory?

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
well i just play 1/2,2/4 so this must be some super advanced higher limit concept that i dont get,
why call pf why call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is loose. I hate the flop call.

Krishan

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

Flop call is terrible. The pots not that big and you could be drawing dead or to runner runner.

Jeff

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

This is pretty borderline but +EV, I think.

PF, I'm getting 5:1 with a small chance of being raised. I like those odds. When he raises, again, pot odds compel me.

Flop, I have 6 pair outs and a backdoor flush draw. 7:1 is good enough for me. That is, unless he has an overpair, in which case, I'm pretty screwed. But, the times I lose a BB or two to an overpair are made up by the times I get a BB or two and take down the pot when my pair outs are good.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

After some calculations, he needs to have an overpair less than about 37% of the time for this to be EV neutral. I think I have that?

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone like this?


[/ QUOTE ]
uugh [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

Pf is pretty standard imo. I don't mind the flop call since I think you'll get to see a free river quite often when he has overs, but check/calling the turn seems bad.
Based on his AF I would expect him to check behind overcards and bet AA-99, so why check/call the turn? You just allow him a free card when behind and a chance to bet when he has you drawing to 2 outs. I would either bet/fold or check/fold the turn, depending on a more specific read. I lean towards check/fold, betting a non-A river if he checks behind.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

On turn:

You CR
:He has overpair and call/calls or call/raises and you fold.
-3BB
:He has overpair and 3-bets. You fold.
-2BB
:He has overs, calls turn and folds river.
+2BB
:He has overs, calls turn and calls river with A-high. Not very likely.
+3BB

My line:
:He has an overpair and either calls or raises and I fold.
-2BB
:He calls with A-high. This will happen a lot.
+2BB
:He folds his A-high.
+1BB

Weight some of those percentages and I think you'll find my line slightly better.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
PF, I'm getting 5:1 with a small chance of being raised

[/ QUOTE ]

is that enough with 47s??

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

I'll play nearly any two suited in this position.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

Hmm, yeah. I think betting the turn might be better but it really sucks getting bluff raised by some idiot with overs. I need to ponder this some more.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

i don't mind PF at all. but the flop call just sucks. well, it doesn't really suck if we don't put him on a pair but I just can't see it being profitable in the long run.

from turn on I like how you played it. I think you'll get the most of out A high this way.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't mind PF at all. but the flop call just sucks. well, it doesn't really suck if we don't put him on a pair but I just can't see it being profitable in the long run.

from turn on I like how you played it. I think you'll get the most of out A high this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
After some calculations, he needs to have an overpair less than about 37% of the time for this to be EV neutral. I think I have that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

This is probably the issue I ponder the most when playing these days: OOP on the turn, whether to risk giving free cards or getting bluff raised. It's tough.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, yeah. I think betting the turn might be better but it really sucks getting bluff raised by some idiot with overs. I need to ponder this some more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't seem like he is the type of idiot to bluff raise you based on his numbers. In fact the reason I think checking planning to fold to a turn bet and bet a non-A river if he checks behind might be the best play is because I think this guy often won't raise you even with AA if you bet the turn. It would take some number crunching to really settle it.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pf is pretty standard imo. I don't mind the flop call since I think you'll get to see a free river quite often when he has overs, but check/calling the turn seems bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we think that a pair is often enough it makes no sense to play it passivly when we hit. Okay, this guy is passive, but even he will see that noone is hit by this board and sometimes try a bet with good overcards on turn.

If I called this flop, which I think is marginal, I would bet turn when I hit. This guy will not raise without a T or maybe with overpair (but probably only call).

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

I'm not so sure about the math here, but here's why I don't like the flop call. One, the pots not that big. Two, if he has an overpair (or something like 88, 99, etc), you are drawing near dead. Three if someone has a 10, you're drawing dead. Four, even if he has AK, he has a redraw if you hit one of your six outs on the turn. Also, there is no guarantee the turn will get checked here even if he just has overs. If you're against a totally passive, predictable opponent in that you know you'll get to see all the cards run if he doesn't have trips or an overpair...the call is ok I guess, but still marginal. Provided you won't be stupid enough to bet the river if he checks behind on the turn and you miss. Cause you'll get looked up by ace high close to 100% of the time.

In any case, I'm folding the flop the vast majority of the time.

Jeff

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
After some calculations, he needs to have an overpair less than about 37% of the time for this to be EV neutral. I think I have that?


[/ QUOTE ]

It feels roughly right if you cancel out the implied odds and reverse implied odds and more heavily weigh the hands (overcards) against which hero is drawing live to account for the flop pot odds shortfall, but how do you exactly come up with 37%? I would quess it was a little lower than this but it seems reasonable.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

After some calculations, he needs to have an overpair less than about 37% of the time for this to be EV neutral. I think I have that?

Please show your work.

Lost Wages

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

I based it with him always betting the turn but if you change it to leading the turn, I think it's still the same.

When he has an overpair, you lose 2BB.
When he has overcards, you'll win 2BB most of the time but he'll outdraw you on the river 13% of the time (6/46).

They're pretty rough calculations, but it's close enough.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

If that flop call is correct, then I have no understanding of how to play six-max.

(If the call is wrong, then I still only have a tiny bit of understanding of how to play six-max.)

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

After some more pondering, I think you guys who are suggesting the gaybet on the turn are right.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

[ QUOTE ]
After some more pondering, I think you guys who are suggesting the gaybet on the turn are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this better than a turn cr? I imagine he is autobetting overs on the turn near 95% of the time.

Krishan

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

Nah, even aggressive opponents won't bet overs on the turn that often.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

When he has an overpair, you lose 2BB.

When he has an overpair, you lose 2.5BB if you pair the turn. 1SB on the flop and 1BB on each the turn and river.

When he has overcards, you'll win 2BB most of the time but he'll outdraw you on the river 13% of the time (6/46).

When he has overcards, he calls the turn but folds the river. That's +1BB.

Lost Wages

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

you can't have it both ways with respect to gaining/losing bets on the flop

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

At the time of the Hero's decision there are 7SB in the pot. He stands to gain 1BB additional or lose 2.5BB when he pairs the turn and lose 1SB when he doesn't.

Lost Wages

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

You're counting the flop in one, but not in the other. When he has overs, I will get called on the river a significant portion of the time.

Re: I\'m a bit loose
 

When he has overs, I will get called on the river a significant portion of the time.

OK, tell me what percent and then we can do the math.

Lost Wages