Proposition for 2+2ers
 

I just wanted to challenge anyone here to read through the book of Romans(it's in the Bible). It seems the majority of posters here are intellects with an open mind and enjoy reading, so it should give you something to chew on for awhile. Even if you don't agree with what it says, may be it will open your mind to a better understanding of Christian theology.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

We'll make deal: I'll read the book of Romans if you read a selection of my choice by Nietzsche.

Wha'd'ya say?

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
We'll make deal: I'll read the book of Romans if you read a selection of my choice by Nietzsche.

Wha'd'ya say?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good, I've never read any of his stuff. What do you prefer?

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

I'd be down with that. I've only read an excerpt of Nietzsche in a Government Philosophy Class in college.

What's a good work with which to start?

-Gryph

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

Isn't Nietzsche that guy who never got laid? Oh except once in a whorehouse and then got syphillis and went crazy.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

Ok, let me find the book of Romans, look it over, and I'll try to find something comparable in length (and challenge).

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

I'll give you one of my Ayn Rand door-stops...

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

LOL! Rand was just a second hand Nietzsche, anyway.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
We'll make deal: I'll read the book of Romans if you read a selection of my choice by Nietzsche.

Wha'd'ya say?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about something from "The Geneology of Morals" or "The Antichrist."

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

I would love to take this up too. Have you guys come up with a book to complement Romans yet?

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
We'll make deal: I'll read the book of Romans if you read a selection of my choice by Nietzsche.

Wha'd'ya say?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent propistion. I'm well-versed in both Nietzche and biblical studies if you want a moderator [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

as someone who has read the book of romans, i definitely think that every living individual should read it if only for cultural understanding, historical education and philisophical awareness.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

I just reread it, Brady. From an NIV Study Bible.

1:28-32 "Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

People oppressed by a World drenched in such inhumanity are naturally attracted to a message of hope for relief from it. But what happens when the salt has lost it's flavor, or worse yet begins to taste like poison? There are many many people who have retained that knowledge of God which "God has made plain to them". How do you know them? You "know them by their fruits". They reject the wickedness described above and strive to live by life affirming principles. Yet many "Christians" Preach to them in Arrogant, Self Rightous, Closed Minded, almost Hateful tones. They are inflicting exactly that Worldly wickedness from which people want to find relief.

Maybe it's understandable how Paul comes out so strongly up front against sexual immorality. The sex scene especially in Rome at that time must have been a horror. People of means had all the sex slaves they wanted. Imagine the private torture chambers for those so inclined. All Paul could see at the time was the necessity to give safe harbor to a church in the midst of sexual insanities. Unfortunately he could not forsee how a life affirming policy of curtailing sexual gluttony would eventually become an unhealthy life denying policy of sexual suppression. One of the problems with taking words written by a man during his times 2000 years ago as infallible.

Most of Paul's letter to the Romans deals with reconciling the Jewish and Gentile members of the Church and should be understood in that context. This is where the "blood of Christ" comes in. The Jews had believed they were chosen by blood. The blood of their Tribe. This Old belief is now transended by the New belief that we all share in the "blood of Christ". We are all one Tribe, one Family of Humanity. What rings true to people today is the resulting belief in the Family of Humanity. Your family blood was a big big thing to people back then. To be united in One Blood, the Blood of Christ was very inspirational. But it's archaic for many people today. The Family of Humanity rings true but the "blood" thing sounds hollow. Yet Christians continue pounding it down people's throats without any consideration for why it was once so popular. Another case where the salt has not only lost its flavor but now tastes like poison. Also another example where taking as infallible, concepts designed for a culture 2000 years ago is a mistake.

Here's something little quoted from the Pulpit:

14:19 "..All food is clean..."
14:22 "So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God..."

He's talking about actual food here. But I think the priciple applies more broadly.

We continue to make progress in our knowledge about what is healthy for people, what really is life affirming, and what is healthy for the community. Just as the Church finally abandoned it's archaic cosmological dogmas it is going to have to Evolve further in its relationship to good mental, emotional, and spiritual health. It's becoming apparent to many people that some of the Old approaches of Christianity are not only unhealthy but downright abusive. For example, telling a child she is Sinful and going to Hell ought to be considered Child Abuse imo. Christianity's contribution to the unhealthy consequences of CoDependency needs to be rooted out of the religion as well. There will be more to come as Enlightenment progresses.

I think the simple but powerful message Jesus taught will continue to advance. imo, It is making its greatest modern advances OUTSIDE the Church by people many Christians condemn - take David Sklansky for example. If the Church does not give up its worship of Old words, develop some humility, and learn from others, it looks like Jesus may just have to go on without it.

PairTheBoard

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

Now that I've read Romans and given you my thoughts Brady, let me propose to you that you read the book "On Being a Christian" by Hans Kung. "Even if you don't agree with what it says, may be it will open YOUR mind to a better understanding of Christian theology. "

PairTheBoard

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

I've got a deal, too. I challenge anyone here to read the book of Genesis and find anything that seems to defy logic. You don't have to read the whole book....read for maybe 20 minutes or so. You will feel the truth of that book. If it doesn't all make sense, I will do 10 push-ups.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

hahah Nietzshe. He makes alot of interesting points and he's fun to read, but his arguments are not the type that would convince a believer that God isn't real. Atleast IMO.

Romans is a good read though. It's actually just a great piece of literature, even if you aren't a believer. It might be difficult for those of you who are particularly hostile towards christianity to see that, though.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now that I've read Romans and given you my thoughts Brady, let me propose to you that you read the book "On Being a Christian" by Hans Kung. "Even if you don't agree with what it says, may be it will open YOUR mind to a better understanding of Christian theology. "

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

What's this book about? I really can't tell from the reviews on Amazon. I think I have it at my school library though, so I might just check it out and read this summer sometime if you'd recommend it.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

Hans Kung was a very influencial Modernist Catholic Theologian during the Second Vatican Council back in the 60's. His work continued to be taught in Catholic seminaries until he came out with a pamphlet "On the Infallibilty of the Pope". The Church banned his teachings after that. His book, "On Being a Christian" was written before the bann and was considered acceptable Catholic Theology at the time. It makes Christianity accessable to modern thinking people but is probably anathema to Christian Fundamentalists. I highly recommend it if you're interested in an open minded approach to the religion.

PairTheBoard

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to challenge anyone here to read through the book of Romans(it's in the Bible). It seems the majority of posters here are intellects with an open mind and enjoy reading, so it should give you something to chew on for awhile. Even if you don't agree with what it says, may be it will open your mind to a better understanding of Christian theology.

[/ QUOTE ]

a christian has asked me to do this before, and i tried to read it but it was soooooo boring i just couldn't read all of it, it didn't really do a lot for me

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

LOL! Rand was just a second hand Nietzsche, anyway.

Odd comment from someone whose opinion about making a living at poker is precisely what Rand's would be.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

Not at all. I thought Nietzsche was all over this female philosopher named Simone.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

I have read the bible. I was raised as a Christian. Something, for me, was missing. There were too many blanks, and leaps of faith were required to clear those hurtles. It seemed that I wanted to take my demanding intellect along for the ride, and with Christianity, that was a short ride indeed.

Have you read any of the Edgar Cayce material? The sleeping prophet, as he was called, channeled information while he was in a sleep-state. This lead me to study the trance-phenomena, which of course finally lead to the Seth material.

His ideas concerning Christ, Christianity, and religion in general, can be (mostly) found in the book "Seth Speaks", or if you are near Yale University, all of the material is achived there. Very challenging ideas, even if the validity of such material is questionable or unacceptable.

Re: Proposition for 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not at all. I thought Nietzsche was all over this female philosopher named Simone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are thinking of Sartre.

Nietzsche was obsessed with a woman named Lou Salome but never got anywhere.