Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

This is from the NY Times' review of Moneymaker's new book.

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We get to meet poker's stars, if only briefly -- notably Chan, who fondles a lucky (and slightly rancid) orange at the table, and Ivey, a young player with a penchant for basketball jerseys and sulky behavior (he wouldn't shake Moneymaker's hand).

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I didn't take notice of this when it was on ESPN, but now that I think of it, you don't see them shake hands. Has anyone read the book,and does he go into any more detail about the situation? Or does anyone know anything else about this?

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

Post a link please.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

I can't say for sure. But i think Phil was a gracious gentleman about the whole beat. He may or may not have shaked his hand. But if he didn't it might have been becasue phil was already walking away and didn't se the hand out. Phil I. by most accounts acts like a gentleman.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

I distinctly remember Ivey snubbing Moneymaker. In his defense it was an amazing and brutal hand.

From memory,
MM: AQ
Ivey: 99
Flop: QQx Ivey checks and MM slowplays with a check
Turn: 9 Ivey bets or CRs, either way they get the money in and MM lets out a groan.
River: A

Ivey is speechless and clearly walks right past an extended MM hand. It was bad form IMO despite the circumstances though I've never taken a beat like that with nearly as much $$ on the line.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

actually moneymaker bet the flop and ivey called, then moneymaker bet again on the turn and ivey moved in.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

You didn't see them shake hands when the hand went down because it got edited out... but at the end of the episode where they recap MM taking down all the big names you see Ivey shake his hand very breifly as he walks by when they replay the ending of the hand. I am almost 100% sure of this.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

Then why does he say in the book that Ivey wouldn't shake his hand?

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

alright i went back to the tape... moneymaker extends his hand but ivey bypasses it to shake dan harrington's hand. as ivey walks by, moneymaker tries to grab ahold but ends up just patting him on the back.

i didnt really notice this before, but can you really blame ivey? he maintained his composure. that was probably the most on tilt he's ever been... except maybe when freddy deeb 2-outed him with set over set. "must be the shirt."

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

I remember this hand vividly. It seemed clear that Ivey was in a bit of a daze and simply walked past MM. It did not appear to be a "slight" in any way, shape, or form. When players pointedly refuse to shake others' hands (Lederer/Tony G; Raymer/Matusow), it's quite obvious. In this case, it was equally obvious that no slight was intended.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

I don't know that I would shake his hand either. I would be on tilt for the rest of my life.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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I remember this hand vividly. It seemed clear that Ivey was in a bit of a daze and simply walked past MM. It did not appear to be a "slight" in any way, shape, or form. When players pointedly refuse to shake others' hands (Lederer/Tony G; Raymer/Matusow), it's quite obvious. In this case, it was equally obvious that no slight was intended.

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That was my read as well. Ivey did not "refuse" to shake his hand, he was crushed and simply trying to get out of there.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

yep, moneymaker bet very small at it. i believe less than half the pot.

ivey would have been top 4 in chips, and the favorite to win it.
it didn't appear to be a major snub.
that was also his second bad beat as he got allin after flopping a set earlier.
ivey should have ended up top 3 in that tourney.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

Still makes me sick to watch that hand. I still can't believe there was no visible reaction whatsoever from Phil Ivey.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

He didn't snub him. He took the beat, stood up in a dazed and confused state, and walked off. He just bubbled from the final table in the biggest tournament there is on a huge suckout. I wouldn't be all smiles either. Actually, he handled that so well that it was mind boggling. He just stood up, accepted it, and walked off.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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He just bubbled from the final table in the biggest tournament there is on a huge suckout. I wouldn't be all smiles either.

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People who say Ivey was the victim of a huge suckout are amusing. He was only about a 6:1 favorite. One card earlier, Ivey was about a 14:1 underdog.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

just for the record, i would've done exactly what Ivey did...and i wouldve been proud of myself..because my second most likely response would have been to choke mm and go on a nationally televised table flipping rampage.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

People who can't differentiate the strong difference between a normal bet and an all in situation are also amusing. You don't judge a suckout by it's earlier streets, you judge what happens AFTER all of the money goes in. I'm not saying MM did anything wrong, I'm saying it's horrendously crappy for Phil Ivey.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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He just bubbled from the final table in the biggest tournament there is on a huge suckout. I wouldn't be all smiles either.

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People who say Ivey was the victim of a huge suckout are amusing. He was only about a 6:1 favorite. One card earlier, Ivey was about a 14:1 underdog.

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Whatever dude..That [censored] sucked to be phil ivey, especially after the way he got knocked out of 2002 wsop

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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Phil I. by most accounts acts like a gentleman.


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I have heard that around vegas from many dealers.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

What happened earlier isn't very important. When the money went in he was a 6-1 favorite. He was also better than 10-1 against Freddy Deeb when the money went in and lost.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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Then why does he say in the book that Ivey wouldn't shake his hand?

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Probably because I was wrong. Shouldn't be that hard to figure out once he said it himself. I just thought I remembered a hand shake later on that I thought I missed the first time around... must have been rememembering something else.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

that was very bad behavior of phil ivey. if a guy rivers me on a 4 outter and knocks me out on the bubble of the biggest final table of the year, i'll be more than happy to run him down and shake his hand. it's the most you can do before you track down his hotel number and choke the [censored] outta him. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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...if a guy rivers me on a 4 outter and knocks me out on the bubble of the biggest final table of the year...

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It was a seven-outer. Your mistake is typical of people who just don't understand how common that outdraw was.

I think it's the full-house over full-house thing which causes people to lose perspective.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

Hand 1: 15.9091 % [ 00.16 00.00 ] { AdQh }
Hand 2: 84.0909 % [ 00.84 00.00 ] { 9h9c }

How is that not a bad beat?

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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...if a guy rivers me on a 4 outter and knocks me out on the bubble of the biggest final table of the year...

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It was a seven-outer. Your mistake is typical of people who just don't understand how common that outdraw was.

I think it's the full-house over full-house thing which causes people to lose perspective.

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good grief man, it was 2 yrs ago. i don't even watch the reruns anymore. CUT ME SOME SLACKS WILL YA!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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Hand 1: 15.9091 % [ 00.16 00.00 ] { AdQh }
Hand 2: 84.0909 % [ 00.84 00.00 ] { 9h9c }

How is that not a bad beat?

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Hitting a 7-outer is no big deal. You're own stats show that it should be expected about 1 out of every 7 hands.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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...if a guy rivers me on a 4 outter and knocks me out on the bubble of the biggest final table of the year...

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It was a seven-outer. Your mistake is typical of people who just don't understand how common that outdraw was.

I think it's the full-house over full-house thing which causes people to lose perspective.

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good grief man, it was 2 yrs ago. i don't even watch the reruns anymore. CUT ME SOME SLACKS WILL YA!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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7 outs w/ one card to come is a terrible beat! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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Hitting a 7-outer is no big deal.

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This is crazy talk. It's a brutal beat anywhere, but even moreso on the bubble of the 2003 Main Event. Even moreso when you have an insanely large chance of winning the whole thing.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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Hitting a 7-outer is no big deal. You're own stats show that it should be expected about 1 out of every 7 hands.

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add a potential 2.5 million win and the throne of poker. most people would throw-up and have nightmares for months. i don't see phil ivey doing nethier. sick bastard.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

When does it become an acceptable beat? when you are a 75% favorite? 67% favorite? I doubt Phil Ivey is telling anyone how incredible of a bad beat he suffered in the WSOP as a 6-1 favorite.

I do think it's reasonable to refuse to shake someone's hand if they celebrate loudly after knocking you out of a tournament. I wouldn't do this anyway, unless it was really drastic like this crazy kid who got 8th from the WSOP, but I don't blame people for not shaking someone's hand after they start screaming in your face right after you suffer a bad beat.

I understand it's exciting to win a big hand, but if you refuse to take into consideration how the other person who just lost the hand feels (which is what you are doing when you celebrate right in front of them), then I don't see why they are obligated to politely shake your hand.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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When does it become an acceptable beat? when you are a 75% favorite? 67% favorite? I doubt Phil Ivey is telling anyone how incredible of a bad beat he suffered in the WSOP as a 6-1 favorite.

I do think it's reasonable to refuse to shake someone's hand if they celebrate loudly after knocking you out of a tournament. I wouldn't do this anyway, unless it was really drastic like this crazy kid who got 8th from the WSOP, but I don't blame people for not shaking someone's hand after they start screaming in your face right after you suffer a bad beat.

I understand it's exciting to win a big hand, but if you refuse to take into consideration how the other person who just lost the hand feels (which is what you are doing when you celebrate right in front of them), then I don't see why they are obligated to politely shake your hand.

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Couldn't agree more, over celebration is far worse in my book.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

I have 2003 WSOP DVD, it was an obvious, clear snub. And Ivey rarely shakes peoples hand. He might grudgingly shake it if they extend it, but he never extends it first. I don't know if perfect gentleman is the word I would use to describe him... That said, at least he's better than the other Phil.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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He just bubbled from the final table in the biggest tournament there is on a huge suckout. I wouldn't be all smiles either.

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People who say Ivey was the victim of a huge suckout are amusing. He was only about a 6:1 favorite. One card earlier, Ivey was about a 14:1 underdog.

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Fair enough, but who was ahead when all the chips went in? You're right in that it wasn't a remarkably bad beat in terms of the odds, but it was pretty brutal in terms of the circumstances, imo. Ivey read Moneymaker like a book, got all the chips in as a big favorite to double up and go into the final table of the WSOPME as one of the big stacks, and then just like that, he's gone. There's more than one way to suffer a bad beat.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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It was a seven-outer.

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excuse my retardedness.

2aces, 2 queens, what were his other 3 outs? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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It was a seven-outer.

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excuse my retardedness.

2aces, 2 queens, what were his other 3 outs? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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The board read QQx9

3 more outs if the river matches the x as it gives Moneymaker Queens Full

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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He just bubbled from the final table in the biggest tournament there is on a huge suckout. I wouldn't be all smiles either.

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People who say Ivey was the victim of a huge suckout are amusing. He was only about a 6:1 favorite. One card earlier, Ivey was about a 14:1 underdog.

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Fair enough, but who was ahead when all the chips went in? You're right in that it wasn't a remarkably bad beat in terms of the odds, but it was pretty brutal in terms of the circumstances, imo. Ivey read Moneymaker like a book, got all the chips in as a big favorite to double up and go into the final table of the WSOPME as one of the big stacks, and then just like that, he's gone. There's more than one way to suffer a bad beat.

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Not to nitpick too much here, but if he read Moneymaker like a book, he would have folded the flop, he had nowhere near the odds he needed to draw to a 2 outer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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It was a seven-outer.

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excuse my retardedness.

2aces, 2 queens, what were his other 3 outs? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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The three cards that would have paired the other card on the board.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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Not to nitpick too much here, but if he read Moneymaker like a book, he would have folded the flop, he had nowhere near the odds he needed to draw to a 2 outer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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True. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I don't recall exactly how the hand played out, but I believe Moneymaker raised preflop, Ivey called, and then check-called the flop, perhaps believing Money was just making a continuation bet w/ AK or a pp he had beat or the like.

But on the turn, when all the money went in, Ivey read Moneymaker for having a strong queen after he checked again and Moneymaker bet again (granted, not the toughest hand to put him on), and then made the perfect play to get all the chips in as a huge favorite.

So you're right, Phil was fishing a bit on the flop and clearly got really lucky to spike a nine on the turn, but I don't think he was calling the flop w/ the intention of hitting his two-outer or folding--more like an, "If he bets again on the turn I guess I have to give him credit for a queen" type of call, I would imagine.

Not to nitpick or anything. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

This was not a terrible beat for several reasons:

1) Ivey called a flop bet that he did not have the odds for, even implied.
2) 7 outs is not that bad of a beat.
3) Moneymaker had a great hand also and played it well. What was he supposed to do, fold trips with top kicker? It is not like MM called with a gutshot just because he couldn't let it go.
4) You could have switched their cards and the hand would have probably played out the same way.

Re: Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003
 

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This was not a terrible beat for several reasons:

1) Ivey called a flop bet that he did not have the odds for, even implied.
2) 7 outs is not that bad of a beat.
3) Moneymaker had a great hand also and played it well. What was he supposed to do, fold trips with top kicker? It is not like MM called with a gutshot just because he couldn't let it go.
4) You could have switched their cards and the hand would have probably played out the same way.

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