TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

First of all, I respect your recent decision to work WITH poker players. During a time when it seems like Party is taking a step backwards with regard to rakebacks and catering to their high volume players, it seems like some smaller sites are actually starting to offer more. I guess in a year or so, we will see which was the right direction to move in from a business point of view.

Anyway, what is TruePokers official policy concerning rakeback? It doesnt take Sherlock Holmes to find affilates offering up to 28% rakeback from TruePoker in the classifieds here.

I dont think you have a policy against rakeback. I also do not have an account at TruePoker. I think I downloaded the software 4 years ago (have you been around for that long already?) but I never gave the games a shot, because honestly, theres always been a better bonus or something better to play for elsewhere.

So if I was to finally deposit and play at TruePoker, I would only do so if it involved a rakeback deal obviously. Heres what I would propose:

Rakeback now requires the involvement of an affiliate. In my case (and with 90% of this forum) we dont need affiliates to steer us to a site. Its not like we havent heard of TruePoker before. I would want to cut out the middle man and his share of my play. I can be my own affiliate if it would make implementation easier. I would want my rakeback paid directly to me.

Second, 28% is not enough. PokerRoom affiliates offer 40% of rakeback with high volume play. Matching that would be good and all, but what would be innovative about it? If you want more new players, I think you would have to kick it up a notch. I would say somewhere in the ballpark of 75% rakeback for the highest volume players, thats in the range of GamesGrid's offer. Make a deal like that, and heads will turn. 10 new players for you equals 1 table of 30% rake. And well, 30% of something is a lot better than 100% of nothing.

Of course this amount of rakeback would require high volume play to work. Hypothetically (meaning these following numbers are just estimates. If you were interseted, I could work out some concrete ones) lets say I played 50,000 hands at TruePoker without any rakeback. You would make about 5k in rake off my play. Lets assume you offer me 75% rakeback but I needed to play 200,000 hands to earn it. In that case I would pay 20k in rake, I keep my 75% (15k) and you keep the other 5k. It is the same 5k to you, either way, except I propped your games for another 150,000 hands. That's more traffic and more incentive for others to join. You also have added 1 more player earning you 5k a year (or 200,000 hands etc) that you wouldnt have had otherwise. This is a win-win situation for TruePoker if you ask me. I mean, I am going to play that 200,000 hands somehwere, and as of right now its not going to be at TruePoker because Im getting a better deal elsewhere.

The bottom line is that I know what the value of my play is to a poker room, and my services are going to go where the best offer is. There are a lot players with the same mentality around here, and with the changes at Party, the right deal might scoop them away......

What do you think?

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

dont you just love capatilism and the competition that drives the market

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

haha, yes. This is intriguing. It reminds of me back in the days when... "If XXXX is doing it, why can't I do it?"

GL all

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

SinSixer put all my thoughts in print!

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

I like it, but I think 75% is a little unrealistic [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

Seems way too ambitious to me... If a site advertises 75% rakeback to all players, even the fish will see it, and the sites profit will diminish.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

I think it would be fine if you offered it to everyone and called it a Frequent Player Comp or something. Then just tier the rakeback percentages by number of hands played, so that you are only paying a really good percentage back to the very high volume customers. Thus, it would still be appealing even to casual players (hey if I just play 1000 more hands this month I can get that 5% rakeback). Of course, it might be best from a marketing standpoint to keep the word "rake" out of it entirely and hence the "Frequent Player Comp" or some other equally positive name.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems way too ambitious to me... If a site advertises 75% rakeback to all players, even the fish will see it, and the sites profit will diminish.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's true, 75% is a lot and perhaps more than they'd be willing to part with even for a high-volume player, but the concept is good. Most of the serious (and likely higher volume players) are aware of the sites out there without having to be steered there by an affiliate. It would be great to be able to have a direct arrangement with a poker site without having to go through a middleman, particularly since in some cases this is technically against the rules of the sites. I know I, and most likely many other players, feel somewhat cheated that I joined various sites directly and missed out on rakeback deals I could have had if we'd known about affiliates at the time. I would definitely play some of those sites more often if they'd give me a deal comparable to what I'd have through a decent affiliate.

While they might lose some rake by giving a break to casual players who would've played there anyway, it would likely be made back through high-volume play from serious players who shop around for a good deal. Furthermore, they could probably structure it so that they don't discount for casual play, but a rakeback would apply if the player's share of rake was at least a certain amount in the month. For example, no break for someone generating under $100 in rake for the month, but if they generate at least $100 rake, knock off 25%, and maybe scale it up for higher volume, say, 35% for $500, and so on. I doubt Party will do anything like this because they have such a dominant market share without it, but for sites like True it could be a big winner. It would also serve to increase the number of games going on the site, which is another positive selling point to attract players.

Personally, I've never played True, mostly because the interface bothers me (it may have changed since I last looked at it though), but I do like their attitude, and if they went with something innovative and player-friendly like this, I would definitely consider giving them a shot.

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

You suggest a direct cashback, named something like Frequent Player Points.

Truepoker already offers CASH BACK to any player who plays 6,000 raked hands over a 4 month period .... That is 1500 raked hands per month ..... You qualify if you hit 6,000 raked hands and maintain that level of play.

Our True Points are given at the effective CASHBACK rate of $.01 per raked hand .... which in a 10 handed $1-$2 game works out to a 10% Cashback per raked hand.

This is direct from Truepoker, and can be redeemed instantly by qualified players in $1.00 increments.

Before we would look to expand on that sort of system, we need to learn more about high volume players and what levels of play or reward would be appropriate.

David

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Our True Points are given at the effective CASHBACK rate of $.01 per raked hand .... which in a 10 handed $1-$2 game works out to a 10% Cashback per raked hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

David,

This is a good start, probably better than loyalty schemes at most other sites, but to compete with affiliate rakeback deals, it would need to increase. Other than increasing the amount, which I thnk is key to attracting rakeback fans, one suggestion I have re: your current system is to base the rebate amount on total share of rake generated rather than flat raked hands. The reason for this is that higher stakes players are effectively getting a smaller percentage rakeback using the current system (since their hands will often be raked more than 1/2 hands). Presumably you'd like to be at least as encouraging to those higher stakes players.

I realize that something that reduces your profit per hand is a business decision that you'll have to evaluate carefully, so I wouldn't expect that you'll impliment this stuff overnight. I do think you'd be likely to get positive results from this overall though, both in total profits and in market share.

Thanks for taking a real interest in the opinions of players. Your willingness to discuss these matters directly with us is both appreciated and respected.

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

Just like any other business its your hard core regulars that keep the register going and not the fly by night fishies that come and go.

I commend you TPC for realizing that. Unfortunetely, many other sites do not share your same view. I trust with your efforts True Poker can benefit from the slighting many have recently felt.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

This is a fascinating time in our industry's development.

The larger sites have perhaps turned from working their former "market", selling services to poker players, as effectively as they have in the past, to instead restructure in pursuit of the public capital markets.

The tradeoff for Party, et cetera is a LOT of money NOW. Their risk is minimal, the capital markets are laying off their present risk by buying the perceived future revenue stream now.... that is what those markets do. Capitalism at work involves eliminating inefficiencies in the market for capital .... Do not read anything more into it. It has very little to do directly with providing services.

In order to embrace the public capital markets, some sites may actually HAVE TO adopt structures or practices which increase inefficiency in the very different market of providing services to players .... Why ? Because the capital markets are regulated differently and have certain inefficencies they will impose upon gaming operators.

Perhaps the trade-off is unavoidable for sites going public, but those folks did not get that big by making bad choices or choices not in their own interest ... The issue for people who do NOT own such sites is, are operating/marketing opportunities created by the choices these Major Actors are apparently making ?

..... and how can we, as an operator, and you all, as a self-selected group of entrepeneurs, who may or may not actually play poker, pick up those opportunties.

Truepoker CEO

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

We put the True Points system in LONG ago. The sort of adjustment you propose is something to look at in deciding what High Volume incentive structure would work best.

LOL, I KNOW I cannot figure it out over-night, hence one of our interests in how ODoyle does in his quest and what we learn from it.

David

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it would be fine if you offered it to everyone and called it a Frequent Player Comp or something. Then just tier the rakeback percentages by number of hands played, so that you are only paying a really good percentage back to the very high volume customers. Thus, it would still be appealing even to casual players (hey if I just play 1000 more hands this month I can get that 5% rakeback). Of course, it might be best from a marketing standpoint to keep the word "rake" out of it entirely and hence the "Frequent Player Comp" or some other equally positive name.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerchamps already doe this and has rakeback of up to 50% for the most frequent players but it doesn't seem to be taking off big time. Fish don't care about rake Pro's only realy care about fish. Harsh but true.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

"I guess in a year or so, we will see which was the right direction to move in from a business point of view."

I think that each could be entirely right, in its own self interest .... Keep in mind that the current owners of Party would be looking at a haul of over $2 billion collectively, laying off future risk as to their perceived future revenue stream.

As for our "position" on rakeback, Truepoker will honor any rakeback deal we make with a third party, we provide for direct payment to players. What we have not done is devise a direct rakeback program with our players, aside from the CashBack aspect of our long-standing TruePoints program. Should we do so, it would not undercut our third-party deals on the basis of price.

We will look at the other sites' offerings of course and our own third-parties' new deals.

David

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Truepoker already offers CASH BACK to any player who plays 6,000 raked hands over a 4 month period .... That is 1500 raked hands per month ..... You qualify if you hit 6,000 raked hands and maintain that level of play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi David,

To capture the high volume players consider opening a skin to Truepoker that uses different client software. The interface of that new client needs to be geared specifically to the multi-tabler. As is stands now, there isn't an online card room that has a really good interface for the grinder.

With that skin(i.e. different brand), you can offer an aggressive Frequent player program, along the lines of GridGames VFP. That will bring in the grinders who will fill the tables at TruePoker.

Skins, especially ones with different user interfaces, allow you to create different brands so you can market to different segments of the online poker community. The grinder skin brings in volume, the Truepoker skin brings in margin. Together both skins achieve synergy.

Stu

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerchamps already doe this and has rakeback of up to 50% for the most frequent players but it doesn't seem to be taking off big time. Fish don't care about rake Pro's only realy care about fish. Harsh but true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish don't care about rake, but they do care about bonuses and cash back. These are different issues in their minds. I think if TruePoker spins this as a rewards deal, similar to frequent flyer miles, it would catch their attention. The pros would see it in the same light as rakeback, while the fish would likely think, "Hey, wow, they give me cash back for playing more hands! I'll play more hands!" I think a multi-tier program, where the more you play, the better your reward, could be a big winner here.

-Mike

P.S. - David, I'm going to be in Vegas again May 22-31, and I'll try to make the Wed. group at Binions again (May 25). And this time, I have TruePoker gear to wear! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi David,

To capture the high volume players consider opening a skin to Truepoker that uses different client software. The interface of that new client needs to be geared specifically to the multi-tabler. As is stands now, there isn't an online card room that has a really good interface for the grinder.

With that skin(i.e. different brand), you can offer an aggressive Frequent player program, along the lines of GridGames VFP. That will bring in the grinders who will fill the tables at TruePoker.

Skins, especially ones with different user interfaces, allow you to create different brands so you can market to different segments of the online poker community. The grinder skin brings in volume, the Truepoker skin brings in margin. Together both skins achieve synergy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ding. The main reason I don't play at true is because of the 3d graphics (which look great but as ODR has already said it makes it difficult to see the action on the far end of the table, etc).

If you guys started a skin that had "flat" graphics (at least something like everyone else, but preferablly better of course) I'd definitely consider playing, especially if there was a solid player rewards program involved.

J

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

Yes, but do you have a Truepoker Condom yet ? (That is our innovative promotional giveaway item for the WSOP.)

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but do you have a Truepoker Condom yet ? (That is our innovative promotional giveaway item for the WSOP.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if I had one, I wouldn't wear it in public. Not even in Vegas. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

-Mike

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even if I had one, I wouldn't wear it in public. Not even in Vegas.


[/ QUOTE ]

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Stu

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you guys started a skin that had "flat" graphics (at least something like everyone else, but preferablly better of course) I'd definitely consider playing, especially if there was a solid player rewards program involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Doc

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you guys started a skin that had "flat" graphics (at least something like everyone else, but preferablly better of course) I'd definitely consider playing, especially if there was a solid player rewards program involved.



[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously TPCEO, a good rewards program and a flat interface would net you my business.

Volume players will be looking for greener pastures soon - but your software interface needs to be volume friendly.

I do recommend though that you keep volume to with in reason (4 tables max). The 8+ tabling going on at Party cannot sustain itself.


Orange

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
To capture the high volume players consider opening a skin to Truepoker that uses different client software. The interface of that new client needs to be geared specifically to the multi-tabler. As is stands now, there isn't an online card room that has a really good interface for the grinder.

[/ QUOTE ]

UB and Prima mini-views, as well as the regular tables at GamesGrid are good imho. (GG is slow, and the buttons don't work, but the screen design is near perfect for my requirements.)

One good source of inspiration would be the more popular mods for the party skins. I think basically all the multitabling fulltimers have removed chairs, avatars and all other distractions. Some went as far as just having a matte black surface.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

I have to say I really appreciate you caring about high volume players more than other sites and coming here to talk with us, not blatently advertise. I think the 2nd skin idea with 2d boards and a good reward structure, i.e. rakeback, would surely bring in players like me.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems way too ambitious to me... If a site advertises 75% rakeback to all players, even the fish will see it, and the sites profit will diminish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the sites profit per player will certainly diminish. But this will happen, or every capitalism theorist should be shot. You can't charge $7500 a month for a $15 service forever without getting undercut.

I think we will see a progressive 'war' in bonuses, kickbacks, rake rebates, freerolls etc. In a few years the profit margin of any online poker site will probably be 10-20% of what it is today.

Direct rake rebates will probably never pick up, as only a select few really understand them. Big bonuses, freerolls and most likely paid-to-play schemes like GamesGrid will be the form it takes.

Re: TruePoker already offers a CASHBACK at 1,500 raked hands/ mo.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do recommend though that you keep volume to with in reason (4 tables max). The 8+ tabling going on at Party cannot sustain itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

One advantage with feeding volume flat interface players onto the same tables as 3D interface players is that the 3D interface players are going to slow up the game for the volume player. A few volume players won't like that and won't come over. However, a lot of 4-tablers or 2-tablers would begin to 4 or 8 table at TruePoker because the games are a bit slower. Now those grinders are filling 2x the seats at TruePoker then they were at the IGM skins. Couple that with an aggressive VFP and it would be a win-win-win.

Stu

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Truepoker Condom

[/ QUOTE ]

All-in!

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Truepoker Condom

[/ QUOTE ]

All-in!

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

The Doc

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have to say I really appreciate you caring about high volume players more than other sites and coming here to talk with us

[/ QUOTE ]


Here Here!!

As I've said before...his efforts are to be commended.

Even IF he is just offering a bunch of B.S. I don't care.

He is obviously interested in representing his site professionally and accepting ideas from 2+2.

The complete inability of empire to answer very simple questions about the closed-accounts situation is roughly the opposite. They could care less about you or me or any other individual player. Even if Empire really doesn't give a hoot about their players it's not THAT hard to at least pretend like you do.


I am very impressed by TPCEO's input on 2+2 and the instant they develop a 2d table (or better yet...a mini-view) I'll be heading over to their site.
I may actually do that BEFORE that time comes.

Right now I've got too much other stuff going on to concern myself with playing at another site. I'm just not in the mood to go site-hopping currently I guess.

But his contributions here are getting closer and closer to winning me over as a customer over there.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but do you have a Truepoker Condom yet ? (That is our innovative promotional giveaway item for the WSOP.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Dang it! I knew I could have negotiated a better deal. I might have been able to talk you out of one of them too, had I not just wanted the damn WSOP seat so bad!

True Poker vs rakeback comparison (for TrueCEO)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You suggest a direct cashback, named something like Frequent Player Points.

Truepoker already offers CASH BACK to any player who plays 6,000 raked hands over a 4 month period .... That is 1500 raked hands per month ..... You qualify if you hit 6,000 raked hands and maintain that level of play.

Our True Points are given at the effective CASHBACK rate of $.01 per raked hand .... which in a 10 handed $1-$2 game works out to a 10% Cashback per raked hand.

This is direct from Truepoker, and can be redeemed instantly by qualified players in $1.00 increments.

Before we would look to expand on that sort of system, we need to learn more about high volume players and what levels of play or reward would be appropriate.

David

[/ QUOTE ]

I played for a long time exclusively at TruePoker. Once we moved into our new house and I suddenly needed my poker income, I switched to another site in order to take advantage of a rakeback deal. I would play 3 tables at the new site, and the one TP table. I finally switched for 2 reasons - one, TP isn't supported by Pokertracker; two (and more important), rakeback deals dwarf the money you can get back from TP's player points.

Comparison:

100 hands @ 5/10

TP - about 75% of these are raked. I get 1 pt per raked hand. So I end up with 75 pts, which are worth $.75

Party - rake is about $2/hand @ 5/10, so ~ $200 rake is taken during these 100 hands. My share is $200/10 players = $20. At 25% rakeback, those 100 hands are worth $5.

Now, playing 4 tables means about 250 hands/hr. At TP, I'd get about $2 for that hour. At Party, it would be over $12. In a typical 60 hour month, I'd be giving up over $600 in rakeback. Full-time players are giving up significantly more.

Re: True Poker vs rakeback comparison (for TrueCEO)
 

I agree with all that has been said here. TPCEO, if you can implement a system that is even remotely better than what's already out there as far as rakeback, you will attract swarms of new players and your overall profit will be MUCH higher than it is now, even if you are taking less from each player. The time to act is now! There are some big opportunities out there for whichever site wants to step up to the plate first and play hardball.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fish don't care about rake, but they do care about bonuses and cash back. These are different issues in their minds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the term "No Deposit Bonus" as a thinly disguised self-rakeback.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

Be careful if they make you promise to wear their gear at all times!

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

I tried to clear teh bonus at true poker, the interface was not useable. Simpler = better, although the current one prob attracts fish. They multiple skins must be the way to go, I would try your site out agian if this happened.

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I tried to clear teh bonus at true poker, the interface was not useable. Simpler = better, although the current one prob attracts fish. They multiple skins must be the way to go, I would try your site out agian if this happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

The way I see it, if TrueCEO would just have a 1 hour phone conversation with me, we could brainstorm and have TP in the "top 3" within 2 years...... I have played there a lot, and they have a good base to work with and could easily double their traffic in 6 months with the right approach.

What do you think David?..... The initial consultation is free [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: TruePokerCEO, if you really want innovation, how about this deal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
instant they develop a 2d table

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously if they really want the high volume player they will do this. I downlowded True about 2 years ago, played one "free table" hand, decided it sucked enormously and deleted True from my computer.

High volume players need/want good and fast software. Maybe Trues has improved in the past 2 years? But honestly I have no reason to try and find out.

Re: True Poker vs rakeback comparison (for TrueCEO)
 

fwiw, i play at true (a good, friendly place) and remember when there was ONLY, paradise and planet. to me, paradise blew it, like IBM. they had the biggest play and no comps, freerolls, etc.

their tourneys, Ha Ha, to qualify for seats into a play off for the WSOP seat were a joke. They made a fortune with the high play.i left.

party became a big player by offering incentives. True's current incentive plan is minimal. i have gone to true on many occassions and not found a game in the 6-7am, east coast.(i stay 5-10 and below).

a poll of your top 50 frequent players or rake contributors, might be in order.

even a house funded bad beat pay-off would skim from parties BB with a rake. just an idea.

peace,
olde drunk