Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Ok, this is really getting out of control. First of all, those of you who are debating whether or not it's safe to keep money on Empire are truly imsinformed. Empire (or any IGM) skin that has suspended a player for having multiple and thus breaking the terms and conditions of the site has NEVER confiscated that players money.

Second, I read through the other thread of getting to the bottom of the closures, and it seems like there is a good case for each of them. Who is getting closed? Blonus whores and people who don't play there? It should be obvious that if you sign up for a site with the intention of whoring it, you don't get to complain when they catch you.

Thirdly, and this goes to everyone, rakeback is not "about to end". I have no doubt it WILL end, probably somday soon, but there are no indications it will be this month, or even this year. iGM skins are still the most profitable even without rakeback. And you know who is to blame when rakeback does come to a screeching halt? People getting rakeback in the first place. Sure we all do it, but we are not entitled to it, and I think some people forget that. You guys act like Party will not get your business anymore if they stop paying affiliates. Where else are you going to go? Full Tilt? Lol, not likely. The worst players have always been on Party and will be long after your rakeback check is a fond memory.

It's not like one skin can "go crazy" and the others will not. It's all the same network!!! It's like what we saw with PokerNOW: that site literally went out of business and not ONE person lost what was in their account. Those of you who remember Zero Rake should be thankful for that.

Everyone just relax. Nothing is "about to happen" and the sky is not falling.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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It should be obvious that if you sign up for a site with the intention of whoring it, you don't get to complain when they catch you.

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why is it wrong for me to have one account and to use that account to take advatage of the whorring opportunities empire offers. Empire made an offer I agreed to, the terms of which are I play x raked hands and I get a bonus. now all of the sudden there are extra terms not part of the original "agreement" or I have doen soemthign wrong by "whoring" them in just accepting and completing the terms of their offer?

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

The point of these bonuses is to give players an incentive to play poker there. If you are playing strictly for the bonuses, you are a detriment to the business, and Empire is certainly a business. This agreement you speak of is not legally binding anyway, and I suspect that if you were in charge of Empire Poker you would do the same thing. I know I would.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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It should be obvious that if you sign up for a site with the intention of whoring it, you don't get to complain when they catch you.

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I only play at Empire and don't bonus whore so perhaps, I simply don't understand all the nuances of bonus whoring.

But why does empire offer reload bonuses in the manner they do, if they don't want bonus whores? Where in their rules, does it say that it is wrong to bonus whore? How does the question of empire "catching" anyone ever arise, if what is being done is not against the rules. I mean, they offer a $100 bonus or whatever if you play x number of raked hands. A player plays the required number of hands, gets his bonus and then goes to play elsewhere. What has he done wrong?

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I agree. Why give out bonuses and then penalize players for taking advantage of it? It's kind of like coupons. They are their to be used.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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The point of these bonuses is to give players an incentive to play poker there. If you are playing strictly for the bonuses, you are a detriment to the business, and Empire is certainly a business. This agreement you speak of is not legally binding anyway, and I suspect that if you were in charge of Empire Poker you would do the same thing. I know I would.

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I agree, but I don't see how they could freeze my account or deny me a bonus that I am currently registered for. I can, however, see them denying any FUTUTRE bonuses. Which is basically saying, "We no longer want your business."

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Ok look, when empire gives you a bonus and you clear it at .5/1 or whatever, they lose money on that deal. Over time it becomes clear that you are only using your Empire account for these bonuses and thus are costing them money over time.

Now, you are trying to have claim to your bonuses on a technicality, but you fail to understand that the bonus only exists in the first place as a loss-leader. It's there to encourage further play. When you can reasonably assume that a player does not intend to continue playing beyond the bonus, the smart thing to do is not allow him to play there.

It's like car stereo stores that give away a pair of speakers to you just for coming in. If you did that every time and never bought anything, eventually they would stop offering that deal to you and possibly not let you even come in. As well they should.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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[ I mean, they offer a $100 bonus or whatever if you play x number of raked hands. A player plays the required number of hands, gets his bonus and then goes to play elsewhere. What has he done wrong?

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Nothing. But any business is well within their rights to turn customers away. The customer's defense is always, "I'll take my business elswhere." In this case, they want you to.

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I agree, but I don't see how they could freeze my account or deny me a bonus that I am currently registered for. I can, however, see them denying any FUTUTRE bonuses. Which is basically saying, "We no longer want your business."

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Yea I agree that is kind of shady, maybe they wanted to make sure you got the point? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I don't claim to know anything about the inner workings of IGM other than it is run by chimpanzees.

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I don't claim to know anything about the inner workings of IGM other than it is run by chimpanzees.

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vnh

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Good post. I think we as online poker players (and I'm not a pro by any means but I certainly am a bonus whore) have taken a lot of things for granted. Rakeback and bonuses don't have to be offered by sites or affiliates, and a large percentage of us abuse these priveleges (myself included). It's only a matter of time before the sites wake up and realize they are costing themselves a lot of needless money by allowed whores like myself to basically get paid to play (when you play at certain levels, it's entirely possible to have >100% rakeback if you only bonus whore).

Part of me is happy to see rakeback/bonuses coming to an end. IMO there are a lot of players that use rakeback and/or bonuses to keep afloat. These players probably aren't winners, but they think they are because of bonuses. Without the life preserver of rakeback and bonuses these players will dry out and possibly the games will get a little better. I'll certainly miss the extra cash, every month I get at least $500 in bonus money that I use to pay bills or buy crap.

Empire can close my account if they like (they may have already, I haven't checked in a while). I'll find other places to play and if it comes to the worst situation, I know I can still play winning poker and make money the old fashioned way at the tables, by outplaying my opponents.

I also could go without FLFishon giving us a "I've won 943 consecutive days thanks to all of my bonuses" thread.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Perhaps I misread previous posts (or trusted unreliable people) who state thier money has been confiscated.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Dude, we are here to complain about Empire. stop bothering with your "can't you see they are doing what is best for them" attitude?

Where you the nerd with squared glasses back in school? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Perhaps I misread previous posts (or trusted unreliable people) who state thier money has been confiscated.

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I would say you did unless you have a link to it.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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I agree. Why give out bonuses and then penalize players for taking advantage of it? It's kind of like coupons. They are their to be used.

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Yeah. There's too much discussion of Empire's profits in the various threads. That doesn't avoid the fact that they are out of order, whether its good for them or not. They can't offer incentives to play and then complain when people take them. It's their responsibility to organise a bonus scheme that works for them (greater number of raked hands or higher limits play etc).

They have to work with players not against them. Take the skins usual 7 day bonuses. They probably think that by making things harder for players they're making it better for themselves but because I'm hurried when doing these bonuses and am mutitabling I only play low limits. At Paradise, where there's no time limit I play 5/10. Guess who gets the most rake out of me.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Part of me is happy to see rakeback/bonuses coming to an end. IMO there are a lot of players that use rakeback and/or bonuses to keep afloat. These players probably aren't winners, but they think they are because of bonuses. Without the life preserver of rakeback and bonuses these players will dry out and possibly the games will get a little better.

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Ummmm....don't you want these players in your games?

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Ummmm....don't you need these players in your games?

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FYP

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Yeah these bonuses must really be killing them. That's why they offer them every month. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Yeah these bonuses must really be killing them. That's why they offer them every month. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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are you retarded?

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Part of me is happy to see rakeback/bonuses coming to an end. IMO there are a lot of players that use rakeback and/or bonuses to keep afloat. These players probably aren't winners, but they think they are because of bonuses. Without the life preserver of rakeback and bonuses these players will dry out and possibly the games will get a little better.

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Ummmm....don't you want these players in your games?

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Online poker is big business and the sites have to compete with each other and this will usually mean some form of incentive. It's up to them to work out the form that comes in.

Personally I'd rather do without the regular Neteller shuffle. It'd better for the site if I just left my money with them but got a bonus/rakeback/whatever anyway.

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Yeah these bonuses must really be killing them. That's why they offer them every month. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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are you retarded?

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HAHA

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Admittedly I have read mainly secondary accounts of confiscation, so perhaps I jumped the gun in earlier posts. I am still somewhat uncomfortable about this whole situation though. I guess I never expected this from IGM sites. Any any event, the bonus gravy train might be over, and if it is I'm okay with that (since I do win). But the way Empire seems to handling this is just making me useasy.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Ok look, when empire gives you a bonus and you clear it at .5/1 or whatever, they lose money on that deal.

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Buster,

Good post. You make some good points (and I whole heartedly agree with "the sky is not falling" stuff) but I think you may be a bit off on this particular point.

I'd be very surprised if anyone ever got banned from a Poker site for only having one single account with that site and only playing it when they are offering a deposit bonus. I say this mostly because I'm pretty sure that most poker bonuses are on average a breakeven proposition for a site. They may lose a little on .5/$1 and $1/2 players but they still make money on anyone above that. If an affiliate is eating some of the bonus ( - MGR) then they would lose even less.

If you were correct that it cost a site a fair bit with these bonuses then it would be virtually impossible for a site like Absolute to "make it". Think about it. Absolute pretty much has a 365 day a year bonus and I would assume that by far the majority of it's players would constantly be clearing a bonus.

If this is the case (that it costs them very little), why would they want to chase someone away that may at some time in the future choose to make that site their home. If after 5 years of whoring them you still hadn't switched some of your regular play to them then maybe . . . .

I own my own business and can tell you that it would make no sense to me from a business point of view to chase away any potential future customers if it was costing very little every time they "visited" my site.

busguy

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Part of me is happy to see rakeback/bonuses coming to an end. IMO there are a lot of players that use rakeback and/or bonuses to keep afloat. These players probably aren't winners, but they think they are because of bonuses. Without the life preserver of rakeback and bonuses these players will dry out and possibly the games will get a little better.

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Ummmm....don't you want these players in your games?

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I'm not talking about the super fish loose passives or the LAGs. I'm talking about the guy that is break even at best that sure you can make money off of, but when the guy is a 10 VPIP rock it makes the tables worse more than better. Seeing less of these 8 tabling rock fests woulnd't make me too mad no.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Admittedly I have read mainly secondary accounts of confiscation, so perhaps I jumped the gun in earlier posts. I am still somewhat uncomfortable about this whole situation though. I guess I never expected this from IGM sites. Any any event, the bonus gravy train might be over, and if it is I'm okay with that (since I do win). But the way Empire seems to handling this is just making me useasy.

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I don't think they are going to stop offering bonuses. Players much rather play at a poker site that offers bonuses and incentives. Bonus whoring is here to stay.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Yeah these bonuses must really be killing them. That's why they offer them every month. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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are you retarded?

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Quit pretending like you know the business inside and out. When you in fact know nothing of Empires accounting, or treasury department. And yes apparently I am retarded for arguing on the internet with yet another armchair know-it-all CFO of Empire.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

As an affiliate, I can tell you that on the past $100 reload, i had a guy leave after generating around -$60 MGR to clear it.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

I did not mean to imply anyone would stop offering bonuses. The thing is, for me, I don't play nearly as many hands as many of you, so when I do play it is often to clear bonuses. When I'm not clearing, it's usually at Empire or Stars (for tourneys), so I guess I fit the bill as a bonus explioter or whatever. It's pretty lucrative for a very part time player like me. I might be able to do this much longer, but if not, I'm okay with that.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Admittedly I have read mainly secondary accounts of confiscation, so perhaps I jumped the gun in earlier posts.

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Email from Empire to guy who's funds were confiscated. Accoring to him, the amount is not small

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> --- VIP customer support <vip@empirepoker.com>
> wrote:
> > Dear xxxxxxx
> >
> > Thank you for your e-mail.
> >
> > The Company reserves the right to cancel your
> > EmpirePoker.com account and any balance of funds
> > will be forfeited. You can read the full Terms
> and
> > Conditions here:
> >
>
> http://www.empirepoker.com/about_us/...formation.html
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Louise
> > VIP Customer Support Team
> > www.empirepoker.com
> >

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Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

I'd like to know the whole story on that closure, and I would bet $ that it's not for multiple accounts or bonus abuse. I believe they only do this for chip-dumping.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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Quit pretending like you know the business inside and out. When you in fact know nothing of Empires accounting, or treasury department. And yes apparently I am retarded for arguing on the internet with yet another armchair know-it-all CFO of Empire.

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I don't need any special knowledge of Empire to know that any business would try to stop situations that are repeatedly taking away from their bottom line.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

Steal more.

WiteKnite

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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I don't need any special knowledge of Empire to know that any business would try to stop situations that are repeatedly taking away from their bottom line.

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The problem is how they're doing it. There are plenty of easy ways that wouldn't cause all this trouble.

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The problem is how they're doing it. There are plenty of easy ways that wouldn't cause all this trouble.

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I don't claim to know anything about the inner workings of IGM other than it is run by chimpanzees.

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Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

nh

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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It's like car stereo stores that give away a pair of speakers to you just for coming in. If you did that every time and never bought anything, eventually they would stop offering that deal to you and possibly not let you even come in. As well they should.



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That's rediculous, it's not the consumers fault. If that particular ad. technique isn't working as they expect, you don't chop the head of your customer.

Sure, take away the "lost-leader" or change the t&c's to better suit your goals. But to outright ban a customer with a rude and insulting email and give no reason for the action taken?

There are much better ways to handle these situations. Account specific reloads! If a whore doesn't get a bonus and their account is inactive for 6 months, doesn't the account get closed by default?

Regardless, it stinks and it's all Empires fault.

outs

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The problem is how they're doing it. There are plenty of easy ways that wouldn't cause all this trouble.

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I don't claim to know anything about the inner workings of IGM other than it is run by chimpanzees.

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Ok. Fair enough. They may die of natural causes (stupidity). Still I say we take off and nuke the place from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

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Spot on Buster.

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I agree with Buster.


If Empire wants to ban a certain customer it's well within their rights and abilities to do so.
I wish it weren't that way...but it's their site, not mine. They can pretty much do what they want.

If they wanted to run-away with everyone's money they could probably do it fairly easily with little reprecussions.
This is true of any site. If you aren't comfortable with this possibility then don't play there.

I think the chance of this happening on party or stars is VERY VERY VERY slim. I think the chance of this happening on some of the other sites is really slim too but perhaps marginally more likely.

The amount of comfortability I have with my money in these sites is just a little bit less than with my bank.


Anyway - what empire is doing is somewhat similar to how regular online-casinos handle what they term 'bonus-abusers'.
They just tell the customer that we have determined that you aren't really here to play the games "recreationally". you are just here to take advantage of our bonus offer so we have decided we no longer want your business.

All the bonus-chasers at the online-casinos complain about it....but the casino basically is 'holding all the cards' (I'm so punny...ha ha ha!!!).
They can offer whatever kind of bonus they like and then make up whatever other rules they want as they go along.

It's up to them.
And it's up to the customer to determine which sites he should take his business too based on what he has learned of the honesty of each site.


I have no problem taking my business to empire for the time-being.
This might change in the future.

I certainly don't think their policy of just closing the accounts of the bonus-chasers is a very good one though so I'll wait and see what direction I want to go with this.
It is definitely something that concerns me.

But it certainly isn't worth panicking over.

I almost have 25k VIP points anyway so I want to get my free TV before I were to decided to stop playing there.

Re: Thoughts on Empire Poker and the Zoo
 

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I almost have 25k VIP points anyway so I want to get my free TV before I were to decided to stop playing there.

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Whore [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]