Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

While battling to improve my aggression(I'm weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] ) I find myself betting too much into flops that I shouldn't have just because I raised pre-flop. Here's an example:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, SB calls.

So I decided to hit SSHE once again. In the section "Playing Overcards" p.221 Ed Miller gives very good guidelines for how to approach this situation. I'm not gonna go into the details here. But I'm just gonna give some reasons why I should not have bet the flop in the example given by following his guidelines.

Even though the pot is somewhat big, a)our hand has no backdoor draws, b) the flop gives straight and flush possibities(two of our overcards put three to a flush), c) we're facing 3 opponents, d) we're out of position. We're drawing very slim. So, how likely is a bet here to win the pot immediatelly? Probably none. Will it improve our winning chances later on? Probably not.

So, should I bet this pot? No. Should I call a bet? No. Does this make weak tight by not following on my pre-flop aggression? I'll let you guys decide this one.

My main questions regarding all this are: how many of you guys just autobet the flop just because you raised pre-flop regardless of the flop? How many of you go thru all this thinking process?

I'm just currious to hear your thoughts.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

No, I wouldn't bet this flop either. I'd call to see the turn depending on where the bet came from, how many folded before it got to me. If it was bet, fold, fold, I'd definitely call the flop for example.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I'd probably bet it, but playing a lot of 6max lately is turning me into a LAG. Betting probably isn't best, but I don't think it's that bad here. With two callers, I'd give up on the turn UI, however.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

i'm trying to kick my autobet habit, but i don't know why betting this would be bad. no reason to think you're behind, but i think the turn is where things get interesting especially if it is a blank and you're checked to.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I used to autobet flops when I raise preflop, I don't do it anymore. Now it depends on how many players there are, how ragged the board is, what position I'm in,pot size, How likely I am to win with a bet, How likely my hand is the best..etc. (I actually go through all this before I decide what to do)

I still bet the flops when I miss when it's wrong to though, I think playing overcards correctly is one of the hardest things to learn, and takes some time to perfect.

consider your opponents.
 

And it also depends a lot on who you are up against.

If I'm at a tight table, e.g. Poker Room or Absolute, then this flop probably missed my opponents too and I can't give them a free card. If you're playing at party or another fish pond, then betting here would be a mistake because your opponents could have anything. Try to see the turn for one bet, and then you will likely have to fold UI.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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Should I call a bet? No.

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getting 8:1 you should at least see the turn with 2 overcards.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I don't think betting this flop is necessarily correct. By raising pre-flop your giving the image of having two big cards, and when you bet at a flop like this, even weak/passive players will know your (probably) bluffing and call you down with something like pocket 5's.

I think the auto-bet strategy plays better when the flop comes with a TJQKA. Your preflop raise allows you to claim any of those cards and will have a better success rate of folding out your opponents.

With the flop you gave your best bet is to have the hand checked through and either hit your AK or try to bluff at a J or Q.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

In addition to the board as you discuss, the two main factors that determine if I'll bet here are my reads and position. If I'm up against a few tight/passives with position (unlike your example), I'm betting this 100% of the time. Even OOP against T/P I still bet this.

OOP and against trickier/better opponents, I'm checking half the time and betting the other half.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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Even though the pot is somewhat big, a)our hand has no backdoor draws, b) the flop gives straight and flush possibities(two of our overcards put three to a flush), c) we're facing 3 opponents, d) we're out of position. We're drawing very slim. So, how likely is a bet here to win the pot immediatelly? Probably none. Will it improve our winning chances later on? Probably not.

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How likely will you win the pot immediately? There's a chance (not huge). You've got a post-call in the middle with probably a fairly weak hand. You've got a player who limped after the poster who might have as little as J9. There's a decent chance you're in the lead here because the flop came low. This means that a bet here may give you more safe cards on the turn and river (if you knock out QJ, for example). Also, you raised from the big blind, and those raises tend to demand more respect. Leading here might be enough to knock out weak hands that you're chasing (not as likely, but folding out 22 or Q4 would be nice).

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So, should I bet this pot? No. Should I call a bet? No. Does this make weak tight by not following on my pre-flop aggression? I'll let you guys decide this one.

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Why shouldn't you call a bet? You'll be getting something like 10:1 to see the turn.

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My main questions regarding all this are: how many of you guys just autobet the flop just because you raised pre-flop regardless of the flop? How many of you go thru all this thinking process?

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I tend to autobet more if I raise from the blinds. Most players recognize that raises from the blinds tend to be stronger hands, so they are more willing (at least in the weak-tight Paradise $1-2 games) to let go of their hands when big cards fall. So I often lead with TT if I raised it from the blinds regardless of what falls (but I'm also ready to bet-fold it).

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

In an unraised (if that happened) pot with three opponents, I would check/fold this flop. In a raised pot you have odds to call a bet with six outs or even four outs if you discount the clubs out, so I'd probably bet out rather than check and call a bet. I would further discount my hand a little on this flop for straight or straight draw possibilities, so check-folding this flop probably wouldn't be horrible either. I would tend to bet if the field was tight, and tend to fold if they were loose.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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getting 8:1 you should at least see the turn with 2 overcards.

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Let's follow the SSHE advice and say our overcards are worth 0.5 each since sometimes we still lose when we hit them. So we have about 3 outs &gt; 14:1. However, two of them put three to a flush, so these two are worth even less plus it gives anyone with a club a redraw to a flush. I wouldn't count these two as outs since they're practically worthless. Add to all this that we're facing three opponents our overcards drop in value a bit more. So, we have more or less between 1.5-2 outs &gt; 22:1. That's my reasoning here for not calling. Anyone with any comments on this is welcomed.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

Good Post.

I have a problem with autobetting like this, but I've lately been backing off with more than 2 opponents. I probably would've check-called one bet with my overcards though, but I still have some trouble with overcard play.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I hate check-calling this. As I see it, there are 2 possibile lines:

1. Bet out. If I get more than one caller, I am done with this hand unimproved.

2. Check, planning to raise if MP1 checks, MP2 bets, and SB folds; and to fold to all other combinations.

I'm inclined to do the second since our position is so bad. (Specifically, we are not first to act; we are second.) But with some reads, either could be fine (as could just flat check-folding).

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

This is a good question,
I always auto-bet over-cards when last to act and checked to me.
I don’t know if this is right or wrong?

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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I hate check-calling this. As I see it, there are 2 possibile lines:

1. Bet out. If I get more than one caller, I am done with this hand unimproved.


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I agree. It's either check-fold or bet out. No way I'm check-calling this either.


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2. Check, planning to raise if MP1 checks, MP2 bets, and SB folds; and to fold to all other combinations.

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This is an interesting move, and I have done it myself several times. Now, what will you do if reraised?

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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I always auto-bet over-cards when last to act and checked to me.I don’t know if this is right or wrong?

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I would bet here if I was last to act and it was checked to me. But what will you do if it was bet into you with a) 1 or 2 caller or b) no callers?

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I don't know if I would say that the two [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] overcards are practically worthless (3 to a flush on board doesn't mean someone made a flush) although I would discount them a little. I think when SSH discounts them to approximately 1.5 outs it's precisely because top pair doesn't always win. I think you can safely say they would be worth about 2.5 outs and with implied odds you might be able to call but you'd probably need about 11 or 12 to 1.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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getting 8:1 you should at least see the turn with 2 overcards.

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Let's follow the SSHE advice and say our overcards are worth 0.5 each since sometimes we still lose when we hit them. So we have about 3 outs &gt; 14:1. However, two of them put three to a flush, so these two are worth even less plus it gives anyone with a club a redraw to a flush. I wouldn't count these two as outs since they're practically worthless. Add to all this that we're facing three opponents our overcards drop in value a bit more. So, we have more or less between 1.5-2 outs &gt; 22:1. That's my reasoning here for not calling. Anyone with any comments on this is welcomed.

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we counting outs if deciding whether to call or fold. not bet or check/call.

Edit: i think the quote i used here was in response to a bet response, so it might be a bit out of context, but my statement is still true when considering what to do.

my thinking: why check if we're going to call a bet, we're checked to, and it is possible that the flop missed everyone? why do we assume that just because there are 2 same suited cards, that the people in the hand are on a flush draw? why do our overcards lose value just because possible loose players call our bet? these seem assumptions to me that will 1) get you bluffed to fold easily 2) make you timid when playing 3) play contrary to the Theory of Poker: playing differently if you saw all the cards.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I'm prone to check fold this situation. There's too many ways to be beat str8, flush draw, even a measly couple of 4s or 6s has you beat. AK looks very pretty pf but you've flopped a big blank with very few outs to improve to maybe 2nd best so look to get out of this hand as cheap as possible.
P.S. I'm a recovering autobettor but I got sick of donating to obviously losing situations.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

The things I consider are:
<ul type="square"> [*] Am I drawing to a good hand?[*] What's the WTSD % of my opposition and how does this relate to my pot odds?[*] How many of them are there?[*] Do I have any reason to believe they have a decent hand?[*] How likely is it that someone else will bet if I don't?[*] How likely is it that I'll be raised if I bet?[/list]
That flop is bad because you're just drawing to a pair while other hands are drawing to straights or flushes. If you land the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you'll either be way ahead or way behind and you won't be able to play aggressively. You've only got 4 clean outs, but there are 17 scary cards that could wreck your hand even when you make it. Yuck. The flush draws may even raise you.

Basically, I prefer to bet out with overcards if I'm semi-bluffing. People with nothing will (presumably) fold and I want anyone who just flopped a small pair to fold because they think I have a big pocket pair. But if they don't fold, I want the chance to improve to a big pair.

I also prefer to do this when I have reason to think my opponents don't like their hands, such as if I'm only up against the blinds, or my opponents are very loose with their pre-flop calls, or my opponents are weak-tight and appear to be playing fit-and-fold.

Your odds of folding everyone out go down very quickly the more opponents you have. If you estimate each opponent has a 30% chance of folding, then with 3 opponents your odds of folding all of them are 36-to-1. Not good. On the other hand, if the flop looks particularly useless (2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]), then maybe you estimate each opponent has a 60% chance of folding, and then your odds are 3.6-to-1. As you can see, the difference (for you) between a coordinated flop and an uncoordianted flop is huge. :-)

I don't do the math out every time, I just estimate.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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I'm prone to check fold this situation. There's too many ways to be beat str8, flush draw, even a measly couple of 4s or 6s has you beat. AK looks very pretty pf but you've flopped a big blank with very few outs to improve to maybe 2nd best so look to get out of this hand as cheap as possible.
P.S. I'm a recovering autobettor but I got sick of donating to obviously losing situations.

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hahaha! are you guys serious? am i really that LAGgish? people call our preflop bet (1 being a poster), the flop comes and suddenly we're folding AK to a pair of 8s or flush draw?

there are 3 people in the hand (1 which folds to a single bet), and suddenly our AK is no good, someone is on a straight draw, another on a flush draw, hell, let's give the last guy in the hand a slowplayed set- why not?

maybe it's just me, and if it is, please free me from my LAGGish ways!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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getting 8:1 you should at least see the turn with 2 overcards.

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Let's follow the SSHE advice and say our overcards are worth 0.5 each since sometimes we still lose when we hit them. So we have about 3 outs &gt; 14:1. However, two of them put three to a flush, so these two are worth even less plus it gives anyone with a club a redraw to a flush. I wouldn't count these two as outs since they're practically worthless. Add to all this that we're facing three opponents our overcards drop in value a bit more. So, we have more or less between 1.5-2 outs &gt; 22:1. That's my reasoning here for not calling. Anyone with any comments on this is welcomed.

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I don't see how check calling can't be a option, if someone bets your odds are better than 8:1, there is also a chance that it would get checked through and you get to see the turn for free and check fold when the turn comes a blank. Giving yourself only 2 outs or less is way too low, this board does not look like it hit anybody hard, so your overcard outs are more likely to be live.
I don't mind betting either. But I don't really like folding.The turn is easy, if you miss then fold. folding on the flop seems like fit or fold poker.IMO

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

Playing overcards is one of the toughest things to do and yet is a critically important skill to have because it comes up all the time. If you are a tight player you will be faced with this dilemna as much as 50% of the hands you enter in any one session. Auto-betting because you raised pf is a pretty big mistake IMO.

I look at raising pf as similar to doubling down black jack. When you think your hand is best get your money in the pot. However once the flop comes down hand values change dramatically. You need to adjust to this change in value or else you'll be spewing chips. The hand you posted is a terrific example of this. Your AKo suddenly looks like a very weak drawing hand with only two cards to go to me. You're drawing to top pair, your [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] outs are dirty, the chance of reverse domanition is large and your opponents probably are ahead now or with stronger draws that a flop bet will never drive away. It doesn't seem fair that your AKo that you patiently waited for is suddenly a big underdog to the like of any idiot who limped in with A4o or even 57s but them are the breaks.

I raise pf anywhere from 10-12% of the time and yet wind up check calling or even check folding in these types of flops all the time. The responses I get in the chat box are quite funny from time to time. (it realy pisses people off when after raising pf you check/ fold and they're sitting on a monster hoping you'll help them pump the pot)

Checking these flops (especially in EP) often gives you more accurate information than merely auto-betting to. If you auto-bet you often scare passive players in calling you down with a small pair but rarely scares them into folding. You lose the max when you are behind. This especially sucks in EP when you can't seem to give up trying to drive someone away and feel you have to keep representing AA. The only time you can get out of the hand is when someone has a monster and raises you. Even then most players feel obliged to at least call and see the next street so as to not fold on the same street. You just wasted two bets trying to drive players off of a hand much of the time. I'm not saying it is always wrong to bet with overcards but pick your spots. When the pot is being contested 4+ ways it is pretty unlikely you'll steal a pot. The only time everyone will fold is usually when they all missed too.

Something to remember is that when you raise pf they don't know you have overcards. They often assume you do but their bets or raises usually mean something. Even if they think you missed with overcards they have to fear you have a high pocket pair until you prove otherwise. Them testing you usually means they have something. It won't necessarily be something that can beat the hand you are drawing to but will almost certainly be a hand that is currently beating your overcrads or is drawing to something better than your overcards are drawing to. Telling the table you missed the flop is not such a bad thing. If they are paying attention they will immediately guess you have overcards which will allow you to bluff if a high card hits such as a K when you actually have AQ. You therefore have more outs than you really do because you not only have the outs that make your hand but the ones that look like they make your hand too. You'd be surprised how much these types of bluffs will work against players who are even remotely paying attention. Against calling stations don't bother though.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

A good point droolie made, how big the field your betting into is. If there are 4+ a bet is not folding anyone out. If it is hu I tend to bet most of the time.

Also if you have backdoor flush or str8 draw added it makes your hand a lot stronger.

If the flop is connected or has 2 suit cards you will get more calls.

These are tough hands to play, too many people (myself included) tend to auto bet after a pfr, and its important to learn when and why. SSHE has good section on this, but a lot of it is situational, so keep good notes on who your betting into.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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getting 8:1 you should at least see the turn with 2 overcards.

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Let's follow the SSHE advice and say our overcards are worth 0.5 each since sometimes we still lose when we hit them. So we have about 3 outs &gt; 14:1. However, two of them put three to a flush, so these two are worth even less plus it gives anyone with a club a redraw to a flush. I wouldn't count these two as outs since they're practically worthless. Add to all this that we're facing three opponents our overcards drop in value a bit more. So, we have more or less between 1.5-2 outs &gt; 22:1. That's my reasoning here for not calling. Anyone with any comments on this is welcomed.

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You may be discounting too much... or I may not be discounting enough:

I have to go back and look at specific examples in SSHE, but I took it that "0.5 discount for times we hit and still lost" to include things like flushes, straights, Fulls, Quads, reverse dominated, etc.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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hahaha! are you guys serious? am i really that LAGgish? people call our preflop bet (1 being a poster), the flop comes and suddenly we're folding AK to a pair of 8s or flush draw?

there are 3 people in the hand (1 which folds to a single bet), and suddenly our AK is no good, someone is on a straight draw, another on a flush draw, hell, let's give the last guy in the hand a slowplayed set- why not?

maybe it's just me, and if it is, please free me from my LAGGish ways!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Give me a break!! You have NOTHING! ZIP! ZERO! NADA on a board full of draws! And what you do have, if paired stands a great chance of helping someone else! . Seriously, what do hope to accomplish by betting this flop? A semi-bluff? Taking it down right now? A value bet? Then where does that leave you on the turn? Facing a big pot with a loosing hand and hardly any chance to take it, many crying calls all the way to the river. Get out of the hand before you become married to the pot.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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2. Check, planning to raise if MP1 checks, MP2 bets, and SB folds; and to fold to all other combinations.

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This is an interesting move, and I have done it myself several times. Now, what will you do if reraised?

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Call planning to fold on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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hahaha! are you guys serious? am i really that LAGgish? people call our preflop bet (1 being a poster), the flop comes and suddenly we're folding AK to a pair of 8s or flush draw?

there are 3 people in the hand (1 which folds to a single bet), and suddenly our AK is no good, someone is on a straight draw, another on a flush draw, hell, let's give the last guy in the hand a slowplayed set- why not?

maybe it's just me, and if it is, please free me from my LAGGish ways!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Give me a break!! You have NOTHING! ZIP! ZERO! NADA on a board full of draws! And what you do have, if paired stands a great chance of helping someone else! . Seriously, what do hope to accomplish by betting this flop? A semi-bluff? Taking it down right now? A value bet? Then where does that leave you on the turn? Facing a big pot with a loosing hand and hardly any chance to take it, many crying calls all the way to the river. Get out of the hand before you become married to the pot.

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you see nothing, i see a live hand worth a bet. you see a board that hit someone; i see a hand that might have missed them. you see getting "married" to a hand; i see a hand i can get away from.

different perspectives i guess. check/fold all day if you want. i think it is poor poker.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

Well put droolie.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

If you bet the flop and get called in one spot (probably against some small pp), do you check the turn on a blank (that doesn't help flush nor straight draws)? or do you bet again? if you check and he bets, then is it a clear fold?

I'm having huge problems with this also in my 1/2 games at party..

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I don't know man. I think this is one of those times that your AK ain't looking that pretty anymore. Can't win them all. Maybe I'm just too weak-tight hehe [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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I don't know man. I think this is one of those times that your AK ain't looking that pretty anymore. Can't win them all. Maybe I'm just too weak-tight hehe [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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to check/fold? yeah i think that is weak tight. some schmoe plays J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and bets, so you fold because "i don't think i'm going to win because i didn't hit anything on the flop" is sad to me.

i'm not advocating betting the turn or 3-betting or any such nonsense. i'm merely talking about the flop play. so an A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falls on the turn, you gonna check/fold when bet because "someone definitely has the flush or they wouldn't have called my preflop and flop bet"? you'll lose and fold winners all the time.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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If you bet the flop and get called in one spot (probably against some small pp), do you check the turn on a blank (that doesn't help flush nor straight draws)? or do you bet again? if you check and he bets, then is it a clear fold?

I'm having huge problems with this also in my 1/2 games at party..

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This is the 100,000,000 question. There are many variables to consider...
Being OOP sucks in these situations.

Look at the board texture. Could he be chasing a draw? If so he will fold if the river if the obvious draws don't come through.
What do you know about the guy? Will he always bet if checked to or only if he has a hand? (not everyone bets when checked to!!) Does he often peel one off? If so a turn bet might chase him away. If he's a calling station who calls down with any kind of piece of the flop you know you're in trouble. If he's usually aggressive and now is only calling he's probably drawing.

How much money is in the pot? You have to consider what the odds are. You will often be betting 1BB to win 8 or more. This is often a good gamble HU. The bigger the bigger the pot the more likely he's chasing.

You will usually want to see the river so you need to ask yourself if you want to call a raise or not. If you want to see the river but don't want to pay 2 bets checking is probably better. If you don't mind calling a raise just bet. If you can safely fold to a raise just bet.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

Say for argument, that you are certain he has a small pp, that is smaller than the high card on the board - is it worth betting flop/turn/river to drive him out of the hand? I guess this is very read dependent, and to get a feeling for such a response, wouldn't you need a pretty big sample size? I think that a passive player would not bet a small pp, but even an aggressive player with pp might not bet, wanting a cheap showdown no?

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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i'm not advocating betting the turn or 3-betting or any such nonsense. i'm merely talking about the flop play. so an A falls on the turn, you gonna check/fold when bet because "someone definitely has the flush or they wouldn't have called my preflop and flop bet"? you'll lose and fold winners all the time.

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If this is the case on the turn I won't fold either. But then again this is just another case of "what if this falls or that falls". We can go on speculating here forever and don't get anywhere. One thing is for sure, if I check this flop I ain't calling a bet. If was planning to call I would rather come out firing and let them do the calling. Now, do I bet? Well I did on that hand hehe. But was it worth it on such a crappy board? You seem to think that's the way to go. I'm not really sure(but leaning more to not betting) after reading "Playing Overcards" in SSHE.
Just trying to keep on learning this game.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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you see nothing, i see a live hand worth a bet. you see a board that hit someone; i see a hand that might have missed them. you see getting "married" to a hand; i see a hand i can get away from.

different perspectives i guess. check/fold all day if you want. i think it is poor poker.

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I see someone hopelessly chasing. You may want to re-read the section on reverse implied odds in SSHE, it pretty much sums it up.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?

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Short answer no, with a but. Long answer yes, with an if.

In this situation, with a small field on the flop, I would make a continuation bet.

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

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Playing overcards is one of the toughest things to do and yet is a critically important skill to have because it comes up all the time. If you are a tight player you will be faced with this dilemna as much as 50% of the hands you enter in any one session. Auto-betting because you raised pf is a pretty big mistake IMO.

I look at raising pf as similar to doubling down black jack. When you think your hand is best get your money in the pot. However once the flop comes down hand values change dramatically. You need to adjust to this change in value or else you'll be spewing chips. The hand you posted is a terrific example of this. Your AKo suddenly looks like a very weak drawing hand with only two cards to go to me. You're drawing to top pair, your [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] outs are dirty, the chance of reverse domanition is large and your opponents probably are ahead now or with stronger draws that a flop bet will never drive away. It doesn't seem fair that your AKo that you patiently waited for is suddenly a big underdog to the like of any idiot who limped in with A4o or even 57s but them are the breaks.

I raise pf anywhere from 10-12% of the time and yet wind up check calling or even check folding in these types of flops all the time. The responses I get in the chat box are quite funny from time to time. (it realy pisses people off when after raising pf you check/ fold and they're sitting on a monster hoping you'll help them pump the pot)

Checking these flops (especially in EP) often gives you more accurate information than merely auto-betting to. If you auto-bet you often scare passive players in calling you down with a small pair but rarely scares them into folding. You lose the max when you are behind. This especially sucks in EP when you can't seem to give up trying to drive someone away and feel you have to keep representing AA. The only time you can get out of the hand is when someone has a monster and raises you. Even then most players feel obliged to at least call and see the next street so as to not fold on the same street. You just wasted two bets trying to drive players off of a hand much of the time. I'm not saying it is always wrong to bet with overcards but pick your spots. When the pot is being contested 4+ ways it is pretty unlikely you'll steal a pot. The only time everyone will fold is usually when they all missed too.

Something to remember is that when you raise pf they don't know you have overcards. They often assume you do but their bets or raises usually mean something. Even if they think you missed with overcards they have to fear you have a high pocket pair until you prove otherwise. Them testing you usually means they have something. It won't necessarily be something that can beat the hand you are drawing to but will almost certainly be a hand that is currently beating your overcrads or is drawing to something better than your overcards are drawing to. Telling the table you missed the flop is not such a bad thing. If they are paying attention they will immediately guess you have overcards which will allow you to bluff if a high card hits such as a K when you actually have AQ. You therefore have more outs than you really do because you not only have the outs that make your hand but the ones that look like they make your hand too. You'd be surprised how much these types of bluffs will work against players who are even remotely paying attention. Against calling stations don't bother though.

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Couldn't have said it better!

Re: Are you guys in autobet mode if you raise pre flop?
 

I'm autobetting w/ 2 or less in. Any more, and it depends completely on the situation.