AK ... chickened out?
 

Ok I probably played this hand completely wrong... Should I have 3-bet preflop? I check-called up till the turn because I was afraid UTG had AA since he capped preflop... Should I have played this differently? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

I think this is fine. Tempted to 3-bet the river though...

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

I don't get this at all. You need to be throwing chips in this pot like they were on fire.

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I check-called up till the turn because I was afraid UTG had AA

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There's two aces out there, one in your hand and one on the board. What are the chances that your opponent has AA?

I would likely CR the flop, then go into calldown mode if 3-bet.

I'd also 3-bet the river. Not a lot of people cap with AJ. You're probably splitting the pot.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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I don't get this at all. You need to be throwing chips in this pot like they were on fire.


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I don't want to discourage KK or QQ here...

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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I don't want to discourage KK or QQ here...

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Yes good point. I still think the river should be 3-bet though, but rake considerations are coming into play here if we're splitting.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

This is a good flop for you. No draws whatsoever. Bet the flop and if raised, reraise his ass.

Turn: I'll come out betting if he raises you then just call. If he doesn't raise you you probably have him beat.

River: hmmm... not really sure, but I probably call too. Since I'm also weak tight [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]. But a raise is ok I think.
Can anyone comment on raising the river please.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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I don't get this at all. You need to be throwing chips in this pot like they were on fire.


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I don't want to discourage KK or QQ here...

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Your treating this as though it's a way ahead way behind situation. It's not. It's a way ahead, way ahead situation.

Krishan

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

Check/calling because you were afraid of AA is wrong. Check/calling because you want to keep KK or QQ betting into you is fine. I'd probably 3bet the river, especially since with that A there is extremely little fear of AA.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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Check/calling because you want to keep KK or QQ betting into you is fine.

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This is only sorta true. Your opponent has a range of hands. Against this range you must put in a raise before the river. I checkraise the turn if I play the flop the same way.

Krishan

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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Check/calling because you were afraid of AA is wrong. Check/calling because you want to keep KK or QQ betting into you is fine. I'd probably 3bet the river, especially since with that A there is extremely little fear of AA.

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yes. why pound people on the flop for sb when you can get them on the more expensive streets [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

but i'm interested in the 3-betting river thing...what do you think villain has preflop that he'll cap and then reraise our raise on the river? does he think we're bluffing?

i wonder what the reads are on UTG. i know it's probably monsters, but i'll call because he has JJ or split AK.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

Ok you play AKo hoping to hit TPTK and hope it stands up... then you get THE PERFECT flop for AKo no str8 or flush draws and you just call a flop bet..... raise raise raise till you can't raise anymore. When the 3rd A hits the river the one hand you are worried about (AA) is no longer possible so raise it up!

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

If I check/raised the turn, I'd expect KK or QQ to just fold, where as they might call a river bet when you bet at them out of the blue.

What about leading the turn, looking to go to war? I'm posing this as an open question. I'm not sure this is best, but it's a possibility.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

I think you are almost always way ahead and check/raise the turn and bet the river. If he 3-bets the turn I'm calling down unless I have a good read.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

Jamming the flop is just going to force worse hands (all the most likely hands) to fold on the cheap streets. They'd be crazy to go bananas. HU, this is a great time to wait to the turn to extract more value.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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If I check/raised the turn, I'd expect KK or QQ to just fold, where as they might call a river bet when you bet at them out of the blue.

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It's okay that he folds KK, QQ. He loses out on his 2 outer. But more importantly you get more from the other hands you beat that will call down.

Krishan

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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If I check/raised the turn, I'd expect KK or QQ to just fold, where as they might call a river bet when you bet at them out of the blue.

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I think enough players would call down here with those hands or AQ if the capper is loose to make it profitable. And you win an extra bet when they do.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

What other hands can villain have here that we beat? You think he caps with AQ? Ax? JJ is no longer on the list of things that we beat, and TT will fold right along with KK and QQ. AK is the most likely holding that will cap preflop and will call down a turn check/raise, and we don't beat that.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I don't get this at all. You need to be throwing chips in this pot like they were on fire.


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I don't want to discourage KK or QQ here...

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Your treating this as though it's a way ahead way behind situation. It's not. It's a way ahead, way ahead situation.

Krishan

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Yes you're more likely to be ahead here. C/r'ing the turn though scares off KK/QQ IMO.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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If I check/raised the turn, I'd expect KK or QQ to just fold, where as they might call a river bet when you bet at them out of the blue.

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It's okay that he folds KK, QQ. He loses out on his 2 outer. But more importantly you get more from the other hands you beat that will call down.

Krishan

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IT IS NOT OKAY to fold him, plus "But more importantly you get more from the other hands you beat that will call down." this statement makes no sense because it is HU.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I probably played this hand completely wrong... Should I have 3-bet preflop? I check-called up till the turn because I was afraid UTG had AA since he capped preflop... Should I have played this differently? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

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There are so many ways to play this hand, and it would help if we knew what type of player we were dealing with.

Due to his preflop cap, I'm just going to assume he's a lag (provide reads please, or state "unknown opponent").

I would bet-call the flop, and bet-3 bet the turn. If it gets capped I'd check-call a non-A or K river. On this river, I think I'll bet-call if the turn is capped.

The last thing I am going to do on the flop/turn is give an opponent credit for holding the last two aces in the deck.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

I'd C/R this flop and then call down from there if 3-bet. A read is pretty key here, but you'll either split or chop the pot with most of the hands he'll cap PF and 3-bet on the flop with.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

That was the line I was considering, but I was worried that by betting the flop, I would scare off KK and QQ. In your experience, are those fears unjustified? Would you consider check/calling the flop and leading the turn, with the intention of 3betting?

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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What other hands can villain have here that we beat? You think he caps with AQ? Ax? JJ is no longer on the list of things that we beat, and TT will fold right along with KK and QQ. AK is the most likely holding that will cap preflop and will call down a turn check/raise, and we don't beat that.

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You are assuming this guy has 2+2 capping standards. I'm not sure that is a good assumption. AQ and DonkDonk are the hands I think we beat. You never know how many DonkDonk hands a person will cap with. Can you do a baysian? It's actually pretty close I imagine. The J is not a good card for us.

Krishan

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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If I check/raised the turn, I'd expect KK or QQ to just fold, where as they might call a river bet when you bet at them out of the blue.

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It's okay that he folds KK, QQ. He loses out on his 2 outer. But more importantly you get more from the other hands you beat that will call down.

Krishan

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IT IS NOT OKAY to fold him, plus "But more importantly you get more from the other hands you beat that will call down." this statement makes no sense because it is HU.

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Other hands he might have. Like AQ. How much do you lose when he folds the turn exactly? 1 BB on the river? He has nearly .5 BB equity with KK on the turn.

Krishan

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

There was no aggressive, LAG, loose, maniacal, or any sort of read given. I see many more 0.50/1 players limp AQ than I see cap with AQ. With no read, I think that assuming the range of capping hands as AA-JJ and AK is a good assumption.

Edit: Oh, and congrats on getting married.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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If I check/raised the turn, I'd expect KK or QQ to just fold, where as they might call a river bet when you bet at them out of the blue.

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It's okay that he folds KK, QQ. He loses out on his 2 outer. But more importantly you get more from the other hands you beat that will call down.

Krishan

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IT IS NOT OKAY to fold him, plus "But more importantly you get more from the other hands you beat that will call down." this statement makes no sense because it is HU.

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Other hands he might have. Like AQ. How much do you lose when he folds the turn exactly? 1 BB on the river? He has nearly .5 BB equity with KK on the turn.

Krishan

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you know? you guys are right. jam this hand for all it's worth. lower limit players will call all the way down and pay you off. try that a little higher up, and you'll get folded on the turn, if not the flop IMHO.

zeph for some reason assumes a player is a LAG based on nothing...why we're starting there i have no idea. why not just think the guy is a good player until we find out? assuming a LAG is an expensive assumption.

so if he's a LAG and will keep raising even when beat: 20BBs and that's if he is the DUMBEST player ever (figuring no JJ too)

if he's a schmuck and will call down: 7BBs
if he's a smart player and call flop but fold UI on the turn, played the way you guys want to play the hand: 3 BBs

smart player capable of big lay downs: 1sb

smart player played the way it was played: 5 BBs (reraised river not included)

so really you're gaining 2 BBs and that's IF he's a passive schmoe who'll call to the river with KK, QQ. so enjoy your huge extra winnings of 2 BBs...assuming we don't lose to JJ or split.

NOTE: all BBS calculated after preflop action which is a given

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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He has nearly .5 BB equity with KK on the turn.


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Huh? And if you're saying what I think you're saying, how do you figure that? He's got more equity with AQ than KK.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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With no read, I think that assuming the range of capping hands as AA-JJ and AK is a good assumption.

Edit: Oh, and congrats on getting married.

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Sounds good to me. I remember .5/1 being passive preflop in general as well. I also remember there being terrible unidentified donks. Marriage should be fun. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Krishan

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

&lt;grunch&gt;

PF Looks ok.

Lead the flop. If raised, I'd 3-bet.

I'd have to be convinced that I am against a set/2 pair here to slow down -- otherwise it's rammin &amp; jammin time.

Also, the fact that you have an A descreases the probability that opp has AA. I can't give you the exact math, but....

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

With six folds, I think UTG might have capped the flop with any big pair and maybe AK. Against an average opponent, I might check/call the flop with the intention of checkraising the turn. I would consider this slowplay because the pot is small and there is only one opponent.

If UTG is very aggressive, I might bet the flop and hope he raises. I don't think I'll checkraise the flop as I'd rather get that in on the turn big bet if possible.

I'm in the mode of thinking I have the best hand or at worst I might be tied for best. I'm trying to do whatever I think will get the most money into the pot in this hand.

Edit: I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring how to get the most money in the pot. A bet of the flop looks like I have a A or 99. A checkraise on the turn looks like I have AJ or JJ. I'm thinking the best default paly might be to bet the flop. Someone with KK, QQ, JJ, or TT might do that anyway looking for information. I'd call a flop raise, bet out on the turn and 3 bet a raise there.

As this hand was played, I definately 3 bet the river.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

This is a very well played hand. I think we can find a 3 bet on the river, though, if we are feeling up to it.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

Does anyone see this as the 3-bet AJ scenario check/call check/call bet/call line? Just that now it's capped and we have AK. Do we really want to lose KK/QQ here by reraising or c/r'ing?

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

The more I think about what you did, the more I like the way you played it (except for missing the raise on the river).

Question - I normally hate playing Aces this passively, but I think your safe to do so with the board as it is. Granted there are no draws, but what type of draws would you play this the same way with?

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

Against a solid player I play this the same way. Range of hands after a cap: AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,(Occasional AQ or TT). Against AA and JJ you want the least amount of bets in. Against KK,QQ,TT you do not want to show too much aggression. Versus a weak player I like check-raising the turn as I don't see a weak player laying down KK/QQ here. Against a solid player I play this the same way because a solid player will really make us pay with the hands that beat us and will fold to any aggression shown by us with a weaker hand (exception of the rare AQ). I don't see a reason to 3-bet the river. We are basically hoping that he has exactly AQ when we 3-bet this river.

PS: I would take this same line against a typical player as well.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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I think we can find a 3 bet on the river, though, if we are feeling up to it.

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Absolutly not

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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Ok you play AKo hoping to hit TPTK and hope it stands up... then you get THE PERFECT flop for AKo no str8 or flush draws and you just call a flop bet..... raise raise raise till you can't raise anymore. When the 3rd A hits the river the one hand you are worried about (AA) is no longer possible so raise it up!

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You also weren't expecting the player to cap you. "Raise raise raising" will only scare off hands you beat and spew chips against hands that crush you. 1-dimensional thinking like this will kill you.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

I think you missed this part:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

I generally just call a raise PF with AKo, but there's 6 folds after UTG's raise so going ahead and 3 betting seems best. I don't think we can give Villain credit for AA yet.

Lead out the flop.

Why did you call the raise on the river? The only likely hand that has you beat is AJ. Did he have AK too?

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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I generally just call a raise PF with AKo, but there's 6 folds after UTG's raise so going ahead and 3 betting seems best.

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You have it backwards, the more cold-callers, the more likely you should 3-bet pre-flop.

Re: AK ... chickened out?
 

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I generally just call a raise PF with AKo, but there's 6 folds after UTG's raise so going ahead and 3 betting seems best.

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You have it backwards, the more cold-callers, the more likely you should 3-bet pre-flop.

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Why? I'm interested to know this because I always assumed I'd want my top pair of have a better chance when I hit.