5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

It has been fun people. Now it is time to see what I have learned.

Most of the hands I play have some betting here, some raising there and tons of folding. Not very interesting but I'll do my best. I even decided to try something new and play a hand that isn't named Pocket Aces.[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

The lady in this hand is very aggressive, and she has raised every pot she has played. I don't have any numbers per se, but I have been keeping my eye on her and she is TAG with added emphesis on the AG. A few hands ago I openpopped AJ UTG and she 3-bet TT from MP and I check/called her down on a AQT board (she actually checked behind on a 4 flush river so she can turn it down). Clark's didn't apply to that hand imo eventhough the river was 4 flushed. I was almost surely losing and I was almost surely going to get called.


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="green">Hero...?</font>


Different session. This guy is pretty TAG (12/6/2+) and we haven't mixed it up much over 250 hands. He is a bit on the weak side as he won't raise AJs/ATs/KQo preflop and what not. He will made some iffy colddonks as well but he loves to play hands fast if he has it. I would rather not have him at my table, but I *think* he knows what I'm trying to do at the table, anyway...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="green">Hero...?</font>

Am I playing these correctly on the 3rd and 4th or am I the 22 year old Gerber Baby? Also, what would you do on the river in both of these hands...if this is how you managed to get there.

Always appreciated.

Brad

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

Against TAGs, I would tend to go for a check-raise on both of these. (I would bet myself against a passive player who might predictably check behind on the river, but then I would have been betting earlier streets also so the whole hand would have played differently).

I will also add that I don't get the UTG open-raise with KJo.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

I like the check/call - check/call - bet line. I might be tempted to c/r the river on the 2nd because she isn't on a flush draw with AQs. By that, I mean if she has AA she'll bet the river again, whereas there are weaker hands that may not fire again on the river in the 1st hand.

I'm afraid I have little or no understanding of these hands, so I'll be interested in some responses from good players. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Oh, and 5000 is too small a sample size to determine your true donkishness. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

On your first hand, I think the PF raise with KJo UTG is pretty marginal. I know you like to be very aggressive though, so I'll trust your judgement of the game conditions.

After the flop comes, both hands play pretty much identical. You have to either C/R the turn here, or lead the river. Villain will check behind far too many times to attempt a C/R on the river. This is especially true if Villain recognizes you as a solid player - Villain will only bet an A or K and will check behind with TT-QQ (some may even do this with an A). Villain knows you are not calling down with nothing, and should know that you have an A or K yourself.

Personally, I like the C/R on the turn, as it has the possibility of collecting an extra bet. However, this is getting to the level where a solid player may fold to a turn C/R. I still think this is the move with the most value though.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

You think most TAGs check behind more than half the time? I don't.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like the check/call - check/call - bet line.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/c-c/c-b is a WA/WB line. That doesn't apply to either of these hands because you are very likely to be WA and very unlikely to be WB.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

I think I have to raise the turn in hand 1.
She could easily have AQ, QQ, JJ, TT. You did say she raises a lot. I would raise the turn and see hows she plays it from there.

Hand 2 I may fear we're behind. But I would still have to throw a raise in there some where, maybe thats spewing? I like to raise the flop, we may get some info from him. I would rather him 3 bet the flop then the turn.
Then again according to your read, he has AK or AA more often, so maybe the same line you took, check call river.(that feels so weak tight) but I don't want to get raised, either way I want to show down.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

Hand 1: Her range of 3-betting hands is pretty big here. I'm betting the river and calling a raise. She might have an AK but it's unlikely as the K would be the case. She might have AA in which case we pay her off. It's much more likely she's trying to drive us away with TT-QQ and will take the free showdown if we let her. If she is value betting AQs or AJs she'll call the river bet.
I think a good argument can be made for check-raising but I don't do it because AA or AK are likely enough that I don't want to pay three bets to see this showdown and I can fold this river.

Hand 2:
I check raise. I like our chances at showdown here very much and I think he's just value betting AA or QQ and the likelihood of him checking behind is very low. He's probably not three betting AK pf and given the 3 K's already out this is even more unlikley. If he has JJ I'll pay him off.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

I edited my post. I think that they may check behind quite often if they are a solid thinking player. This would imply that villain recognizes you as a TAG/solid player as well. They will realize that you are not check-calling with nothing. They should know that you have either an A with a J+ kicker, or a K. You would have folded TT-QQ on the flop or turn, as you are not really beating anything that Villain would 3-bet except TT and JJ.

Villain will check behind almost always if they have TT-QQ. Villain will obviously bet a AK or AA, in which case we are losing anyways. Villain will bet an AQs some of the time, and check it others. I think that covers the range of 3-betting hands for most TAGs. Solid players realize that value betting is designed for playing against Loose-Passive players that call down with any piece of the board, not other TAGs.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the check/call - check/call - bet line.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/c-c/c-b is a WA/WB line. That doesn't apply to either of these hands because you are very likely to be WA and very unlikely to be WB.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure? Aren't AA and AK possibilities? It's very likely that I just have a nasty case of MUBS, but I wonder how often QQ-TT bet to the river on the 1st hand. On the 2nd, it seems like more pre-flop 3-betting hands that we beat will continue to bet.

I guess it just seemed like a WA/WB situation. In the first we're behind AA, AK and KQ, and ahead of QQ-TT and AQ. In the 2nd, we're behind AK only, so I guess it's not really WA/WB. I do feel that AA and QQ would fire again on the river in the 2nd.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

I must be the superdonk then cause I'm raising the turn on both of those with top set.

EDIT: Err top set on one, 2nd set on the other that is..

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

[ QUOTE ]
I must be the superdonk then cause I'm raising the turn on both of those with top set.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is hands you crush are folding quick and hands that crush you and playing back hard at you.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

Yeah you're right. I just scanned both hands before posting and should have looked at the board and action more carefully. Both of these are good for WA/WB.

(I like WA/WB on the second hand even though we're only behind AK. That's probably the single most likely hand for villain to hold; he'll be holding this often enough to make WA/WB correct in this spot as well, I think).

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

Very interesting post, Shill.

First let me preface this by giving some of my personal slant in general. Many times when I'm OOP HU and I have what I think is the best hand, I need to choose how best to maximize value. One option is to check the river, trying to CR. The problem with this is I'm risking a lot to gain some. If it gets checked through, I'd be pretty upset. I'd much rather have the flop checked through than the river. So to counter this you can just bet the river. But this pretty much kills the action, giving you much less hope of getting 4 bets in on an expensive street. In order to get the best of both worlds, I tend to CR the turn instead. This usually kills the action, but normally the opponent feels stuck to the hand enough so that they will call the CR and call a river bet.


Hand 1: I CR the turn against this opponent. Given the way you played it, I think CRing the river is safer than usual. (Edit: by safer I mean more likely to not whiff. I think we have the best hand here much more than 50% of the time)

Hand 2: I'm much less certian that you have the best hand here against this opponent than in hand 1 against the much tougher opponent. In this case, I'll take the cc/cc/b line, and bet out on the river. I don't want to put 2 bets in on any postflop street. But your hand is good enough that you must call a raise on the river. He could "just" have aces.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

WA/WB situation in both hands. Check/call flop/turn, but you need to bet the river.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must be the superdonk then cause I'm raising the turn on both of those with top set.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is hands you crush are folding quick and hands that crush you and playing back hard at you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I need to think this through some more.

We called a 3-bet PF. We got wonderfull flops in both cases for our hand. Second only to a flopped boat.

I'd be tempted to do the old "raise to figure out where we are at" although I realize in most instances this is unwise.

Thoughts about Hand 1
 

Given the way it played out, this looks to be an EASY river check/raise. Why?

1) The villian is very aggressive.
2) She probably has a hand worth betting the river with after she bets the turn. If her hand ins't worth betting, it probably isn't worth a call the way the hand went down. So her checking behind might not be that bad since I might not get called by 99 if I bet there.
3) My hand figures to be good in this spot as her most likely hand is AQ or AJ or something along those lines. These hands will both bet and pay off a raise.

So that is what I did. How it all went down in white below.
<font color="white">She 3-bet with aces. I called and lost. </font>

This hand got me thinking about both my weakness as a player and how other players don't adjust to my playing style. A lot of new players will look at this hand and say, "Raise you idiot, you have trips!" I flopped a monster and gave her virtually no action just because she 3-bet me preflop. Had she not 3-bet preflop, I would have been putting in many more bets.

How much merit do you think there is in floating preflop with that hand? Do you think that this is a viable play against someone who will "shutdown" when 3-bet if they hold something like AJo/KJs/AQo/TT...?

Brad

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

Hand 1 - I think KJo EP us marginal. I think that we are way ahead after this flop and I was thinking, what if you raised on the flop (and didn't get three-bet) then we check the turn as a botched free card play and raise when the she bets the turn. If we raise the flop and then check I definetly think she will bet at it if she is that aggressive. If the flop gets 3-bet I think a check raise on the turn is right, because I think we are way ahead most of the time. But I think a raise somewhere (atleast the turn) should determine where we're at.

Re: Thoughts about Hand 1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the way it played out, this looks to be an EASY river check/raise. Why?

1) The villian is very aggressive.
2) She probably has a hand worth betting the river with after she bets the turn. If her hand ins't worth betting, it probably isn't worth a call the way the hand went down. So her checking behind might not be that bad since I might not get called by 99 if I bet there.
3) My hand figures to be good in this spot as her most likely hand is AQ or AJ or something along those lines. These hands will both bet and pay off a raise.

So that is what I did. How it all went down in white below.
<font color="white">She 3-bet with aces. I called and lost. </font>

This hand got me thinking about both my weakness as a player and how other players don't adjust to my playing style. A lot of new players will look at this hand and say, "Raise you idiot, you have trips!" I flopped a monster and gave her virtually no action just because she 3-bet me preflop. Had she not 3-bet preflop, I would have been putting in many more bets.

How much merit do you think there is in floating preflop with that hand? Do you think that this is a viable play against someone who will "shutdown" when 3-bet if they hold something like AJo/KJs/AQo/TT...?

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this pretty much depends on what she thinks of you, obviously. If she knew you respected her 3-bets and were non-retarded I think there's at least some merit to it.

However she would also run the risk of having you slow down whether she 3-bets or not, (for instance, if you had TT instead of KJ on this flop), so she would just be passing up pre-flop value by simply calling.

I would probably be capable of pulling a stunt like that against you, but I wouldn't do it in this situation unless the players behind me were super tight and or super solid. (Then again, I'm a fancy boy.)

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

I would raise both the flop and the turn on the first one and see how she reacts.
And I would go to war in the second one as you probably are way ahead and theres only a very small chance you are way behind.

Hand 2
 

As many have said, this one is a lot more dicey since my hand will be best less often. When he 3-bets preflop, I'm thinking JJ+ and AK. I think he might donk it with TT or AQ or AJs. The one hand that I really hope he has is AA, so I feel like I should have check/called it.

I actually bet, he raised and I called. I got shown KJo and MHING. Not much I could do, but river aside I don't see much to do differently.

Re: Hand 2
 

I got to this thread too late.

First, I hope you stick around donking in the forums for another 5000 posts.

Second, I think the first hand is a perfect spot for a river check-raise (calling if 3-bet). Sucks you lost.

Third, I think in the second hand I would probably check-call (I was thinking this even before I read the results and your thoughts). If your read is accurate, it doesn't seem like this guy is betting both the flop and turn without a K; and if he has a K, he's gotta have an A, right? Turns out your read was a bit off - live and learn. But aren't you an advocate of not betting the river against someone who likes his hand unless you intend to 3-bet it when raised?

Fourth, I really hope you stick around the forums for another 5000 posts.

Re: Thoughts about Hand 1
 

In both hands I would bet the river and call a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
How much merit do you think there is in floating preflop with that hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't flop top boat vs. trips very often, get the money in preflop. Also any hand I would play as villain there would be for 3 bets so I don't think it gives away my hand all that much.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

Hand 1:

I would CR the flop, hope she 3-bets so I can smoothcall and CR the turn.

The way you played it I'd lead the river.

Hand 2:

I like this better against a weak TAG, but I'm still betting the river.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would CR the flop, hope she 3-bets so I can smoothcall and CR the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too fancy. If you are going for maximum value, you can usually just cap with this opponent raising your CR. She wants action.

Re: 5000 Posts and Still Donking
 

Oh I'll give her action [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Yeah probably a good point. I might be developing some FPS. Better get that checked out.