Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Hand #1.

Fish #1 - sees flop 95.6% (button is this case)
Fish #2 - sees flop 56.67% (BB in this case)

Both have gone to showdown with high card several times.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, Button folds.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB


Hand #2.

UTG is Fish #1 from Hand #1. Sees flop 95.6% etc..

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls $1 (All-In).

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Hand #3.

Fish #2.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Hand #4

Fish #2

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">8 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results to follow.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

The problem with megafish is that they cannot be bluffed. They can be value bet like crazy but you need to show down some sort of a hand. And frankly, apart from hand 4 with your pair of sevens, you ain't got nothing. I don't care if you won every single one of these hands, with the reads that you have, what are you thinking?

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Isn't AceHigh good enough to showdown with against a guy who showdowns with highcards?

Another important stat you need to consider is how often they showdown and what they'll showdown with. Since Hero observed villains showing down with high cards (he didn't specify ace-high, king-high, 9-high) I'm assuming ace high is good enough to be profitable here.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Hand 1 -

I wouldn't raise this preflop. Your hand isn't that strong, and you are in the worst position for all remaining betting rounds.

As passive as these two are, I don't think I'd even bother betting into them. They could have anything, and will call you down with anything. You're not going to win this pot unless you have something. I'm not sure how you can call that river. If you're going to call a river bet with that hand, I'd rather bet it out (and fold to the very unlikely raise). The reason I'd bet it is because you are speinding the same as check-calling, but you have more of a chance to win the hand. You might be able to get him to fold a small pair, or ace high.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

When you're playing with people this passive and loose, they won't fold, but they will give you free cards.

I'd check the turn in all hands and see if they'll give you a free card (or just to take one). It happens quite a bit. If they bet at you, they probably have something, and you can fold.

You've gotta check the river behind in hand 2. You're not going to be called by anything you beat.

Edit: You said they'll call a lot with high card, but are they bad enough to call with J high or worse? I don't think you'll win often enough when called, even if there is a chance you'll win when called.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

They were showing down with crap on occasion.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Hand 1 I don't like since a flush got their on the river and I don't quite think KT high is strong enough.

Hand 2 I'd say is fine since villain is almost all-in, theres 3 Js on the board, and KQ high stands a good chance of being good.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

The problem with all of these hands is that the pots are relatively small on the flop. Don't get too caught up in small pots with only a high card against loose/passives.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

[ QUOTE ]

Fish #1 - sees flop 95.6% (button is this case)
Fish #2 - sees flop 56.67% (BB in this case)

Both have gone to showdown with high card several times.

...

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

...

River: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

...

River: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a gigantic difference between seeing the showdown with high card and betting/raising with high card (ie habitual bluffer). How weak are the high cards are they showing down? How often are they showing them down? There's also not much value in these plays if you only have the see flop percentages.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Before I post the results, I just want to make clear that I don't know that I played any of these hands properly. It's sort of rare for me to have 2 extreme fish on the same table and for me to get them isolated this often. I don't have much experience with hands like these. That's why I posted them in a batch. They were practically all the action of my session.

All I knew was that they were both playing any two hands on a regular basis and often going to showdown with weak high cards against multiple players - let alone heads up in steal situations etc....

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Well, I didn't have a huge sample of showdowns, but they were obviously showing down and betting with complete crap often enough for me notice and decide to play these high card hands aggressively and then call river bets and raises. That doesn't mean I was right to play this way. It just means I noticed it a lot. I am looking for feedback. Perhaps I can put together a reasonable strategy for the future.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

megafish are there to play and won't be bluffed.
They grok action.

You can beat them but with better cards.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

I gave these some thought. They are difficult hands and even if you lost them all I don't think there are any giant mistakes.

Hand 1.
It's doubtful that I'd call the river with K-high. A-high and I probably do it. The rest I'm cool with.

Hand 2.
I'd always check behind the river here.

Hand 3.
If he had a hand when you called him on hand 1 I'd be more likely to fold this.

Hand 4.
Calling that river raise is pretty difficult but you should know if he is capable of snapping off a bluff here by now. If he had been bluffing in hands 1 and 3 go ahead and call. The previous action may also warrant a check call on this river even though you caught a piece of it.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Hand 1: Just call preflop. I guess I'm OK with betting the flop, but why are you betting the turn and calling the river? I'd be a lot happier with the flop and turn bets if you had AK.

Hand 2: Much better. He plays almost 100% of his hands and he's almost all-in on this hand. Most likely he picked two random cards to go all the way to the river with.

Results in White
 

<font color="white">

Hand #1 He showed A5o for Ace High. I lose.

Hand #2 He showed Q9o for Q kicker. I win.

Hand #3 He showed 42o for a pair of 4s. I lose.

Hand #4 He raised river with Q4o - NOTHING. I win.

The net of the experience was slightly profitable. So at least it wasn't an expensive lesson.

I think the main thing I learned is that you can't drive these mega fish out with a bet on flop and the turn.
</font>

Re: Results in White
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the main thing I learned is that you can't drive these mega fish out with a bet on flop and the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I use GT+ and configure it to show me each player's WTSD percentage to give me a sense of how often they'll fold. Some megafish (high VP$IP) will call anything preflop and then fit-or-fold. Betting out against them is more profitable.

I also setup my PT autorate rules to identify calling stations and give them the telephone icon. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

[in the dark]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Why call?

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Hand 1: Why are you check calling the river with K high? Either check fold or bet fold. If you are going to spend a BB on the river you are better off just betting. You might get villian to fold a better hand. Probably not but it;'s better than check calling with K high.

Hand 3: See hand 1.

Hands 2 and 4 seem fine. I might find a fold on hand 4 if villian is passive.

Re: Results in White
 

Glad you came out ahead. I sometimes find myself in similar situations when I find a couple of known super-fish at my table. I'm salivating at the thought of taking their money and it makes me impatient, so I play stupidly - sometimes adding to their bankrolls (or to those of the sharks who have joined the feeding frenzy). It just KILLS me when I feel like I've out-stupided such a fish. Then I get even more determined to win it back, plus whatever additional amount was "rightfully" mine since they are, of course, super-fish. And so on, and so on... The trick, which I'm sure you know, is to be patient knowing that when you inevitably get your good hands you can count on those fish to be there to pay you off. Since I've started taking this to heart, my results are much better. I still loosen up a little against this type of player, but I just make myself think about it pretty hard first.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I didn't have a huge sample of showdowns, but they were obviously showing down and betting with complete crap often enough for me notice and decide to play these high card hands aggressively and then call river bets and raises. That doesn't mean I was right to play this way. It just means I noticed it a lot. I am looking for feedback. Perhaps I can put together a reasonable strategy for the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the results, it's pretty clear that there should have been enough showdowns to see what was going on with a high level of clarity. When you see this happen, you need to watch the betting pattern and review the entire hand in your head (including hands you didn't play).

- What will he bet with on the flop?
- What will he just call down with?
- Does he ever raise the turn?
- Will he always bet when checked to?
- Does he check-call decent hands, waiting to check-raise later?

All of these things you can learn by watching, but you cannot learn by staring at stats.

I suspect the correct play would have been to check-call your high card hands and hope they hold up. When you pair up, look for a check-raise on the turn or river. There's a reaosnable chance he'll pay you off.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Thanks. It was a strange experience, but I am sure I learned a few things today.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

I agree. Check calling doesn't make much sense.

For better or worse, here was my thinking at the time.

I didn't think it was a certainty that he would bet if I checked. Once he did bet "I KNEW" it wasn't a certainty that he had me beat because of what I had seen him play previously.

Also, these players were playing and betting such crap I thought I might be able to drive them off their hands a decent percentage of the time with a flop and turn bet. I was obviously mistaken. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I knew my hands were rather weak. So once I couldn't drive them off I was looking to get away without a river bet because I thought it was more likely I was beat than not, but no so much more likely that I had to fold given the money in the pot already.

The big lesson I learned was my inability to drive then off anything with a flop and turn bet.

Re: Confrontations with Mega Fish
 

Hand 1 and 2: The way you played both of these looks fine to me.