Calling down with TT
 

UTG+1 is a maniac, though he hasn't raised much preflop over 50 hands. MP1 is TAG. I couldn't find the raise or fold button at any time in this hand. Good or bad?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.66 BB

Re: Calling down with TT
 

fold this preflop.... and believe me, it must have really been bad if im commenting about the preflop play. calling 3 cold with TT is AWFUL imo. looks like your losing to JJ or AJ from utg, mp's ak missed? close?

Re: Calling down with TT
 

After making fun of weak-tight advice and then subsequently suggesting some in another thread, I am going to say that I am considering the weak-tight plan of folding preflop.

It depends on what you mean by UTG+1 hasn't raised much in 50 hands. If he has raised 2 or less times, then I'd consider folding. Because he may be a maniac postflop, but then it would suggest that he likely only raises with premium hands.

It's not clear that MP1 has that strong of a hand, as he may be trying to isolate the maniac (and might not be aware of the maniac's relatively sane preflop raising standards).

All that said, I'm inclined to cap preflop, and then postflop I think is fine. You don't have much folding equity, and you're almost surely going to be played back at. This would be fine if UTG+1 had poor pre-flop raising standards, but it's much trickier when he has an overpair or set at least 25% of the time here.

All in all this is a tough hand, and I'm pretty sure I don't know how to play it correctly.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

I agree with your read that MP probably has missed overcards.

From the description, UTG+1 is a maniac postflop, so I think he's betting any two on all three streets here. The problem is that his preflop raise indicates a good hand. But he could easily be pushing AK, AQ, KQ, 99, 88 here.

It seems to me that TT is too good to fold and not good enough to play. That's a tough spot to be in. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Calling down with TT
 

I fold this preflop. 3 bets to me means I'm, at best, up against 2 players with overcards, and very possibly facing a bigger pair than mine. Even a fish gets agressive with big pairs preflop. Optionally, cap the betting and hope to get the TAG to fold post flop.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

I don't understand how we are giving credit to a maniacs had preflop just because we haven't noticed him raise much preflop. Hero is in position against a TAG thats probably isolating the maniac, so his range is huge. TT looks like a real nice hand here. I'm probably capping this hand preflop.

Failing that, I put a raise in on the turn. The tag isn't taking control of the hand with you in it, raise the turn to charge him for drawing. There's only 1 overcard to your pair on this flop.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

If any player only raises PF once or twice in 50 hands, I consider him to have tight PF raising standards. The fact that he gets out of line postflop seems irrelevant to this. Obviously, the villain likes to call a lot of flops and then grossly overbet his hand from that point on. Why would I respect his PF raise any less because of that?

I agree that his play is very odd, as most maniacs also love to raise way too much preflop. But if someone with a PFR of 2% or 4% after 50 hands raises PF, he probably has a real hand.

If the OP meant by he doesn't raise too much after 50 hands that he has only raised 8 times (16%), then that's a different story. Then I think you have to cap preflop and cross your fingers.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that his play is very odd, as most maniacs also love to raise way too much preflop. But if someone with a PFR of 2% or 4% after 50 hands raises PF, he probably has a real hand.

If the OP meant by he doesn't raise too much after 50 hands that he has only raised 8 times (16%), then that's a different story. Then I think you have to cap preflop and cross your fingers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you'll be suprised when looking at pfr numbers what gets raised. I don't think you can assume from a low pfr% that this guy is only playing AA-QQ. A 3% PFR is AA-JJ and AK. Against this range I am plaing my TT. Over 50 hands a 3% pfrer will on average have raised 1.5 times. This is way to small of a sample to accurately know how often this guy raised. The OP said he's only raised a couple of times in 50 hands, thats already over 3% and already enough that I want to play my hand. In addition, even if the TAG is clueless, his 3-betting standards at worse is probably AA-TT, AK. A range wide enough where we are still ahead of 50% of those hands assuming these two clowns don't share any outs. I'm not going to dump a premium hand because of a PT read with way insufficient sample size. This maniac is a clown post flop, there is little reason to suspect that he doesn't have clown like tendancies preflop.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

If you think you can play TT against a raise and a reraise, you must definitely bet on the flop and on the turn (the board is much more favorable than you could have expected). If you believe that you are probably against a higher pair, there is no point in calling preflop.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

He had raised exactly twice in those 50 hands, which is about 4%, and I do agree with you about the sample size, which was what swayed me to play. I also now think that I should have capped. Flatcalling sucks.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

Given your reads; I would cap this.

UTG+1 is a maniac. TAG knows this. TAG may isolate down to AT or 77 or maybe less. UTG+1 could be on a lot of things; hopefully TAG will be on overs or even Axs.

-Craig

Re: Calling down with TT
 

[ QUOTE ]
He had raised exactly twice in those 50 hands, which is about 4%, and I do agree with you about the sample size, which was what swayed me to play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Regardless of the read, it wasn't a single raise but two raises in front of you. Add to this that one of the raises was from someone who appears not to raise much PF and the other is a TAG.

If I had no read at all, I'd be dumping TT in this situation. Your read, however limited, does nothing but add fuel to the folding fire.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

Cap this preflop. And stay aggressive on a raggy J-high board postflop. If nothing else, aggression will provide you with information about your opponents' hands, thus allowing you to make better decisions as the hand progresses.

Folding against the opponents you described is a bit weak-tight for my tastes, but it sure beats calling three cold.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

Raising 2 out of 50 hands preflop is an indication that he is passive preflop. It's not a huge sample size, but it's worth making an inference based on. His range obviously could be wider than 4% of hands, but it's really unlikely to be very wide.

HOWEVER, I don't think the fact that he raises about 5% of the time preflop necessarily means he raises with the BEST 5% of his hands. He might slowplay big pairs and be raising with suited nonsense or the such here. It would be very helpful to have seen which two hands villain showed down when he raised preflop earlier, or at least one of them. (Also noteworthy would be if he folded by the river, which he almost certainly wouldn't do with a big PP or even big overcards.)

Also, a better read on the TAG would help. Has he been isolating the maniacs limps so far. Has he been at the table with you and the maniac for a while? Even so, he might be isolating with a weak hand here. If the TAG has been folding a lot since the maniac sat down, then I might consider folding, as it is less likely he is isolating with a weak hand.

I do think you have to cap here PF with TT without a better read, but it's close. It might be right to fold 99 here and it's probably right to fold 88 here. And I would certainly fold TT here if I had good reason to believe the maniacs PF raise standards were JJ -- AA and AK. But I think there's enough reason to doubt this, even though he hasn't raised much preflop, to play on. Or if I knew the TAG didn't know how to adjust to the maniac.

Also, as a general comment on post-flop play, I don't recommend raising at any point postflop in order to get information, because you basically can't fold preflop unless the TAG keeps raising to knock you out. You should raise for value based on your reads, and at a certain point you're probably just looking to see a showdown if the maniac keeps playing back at you. Obviously, aggression from the TAG is much more problematic and might cause you to lay down your hand.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

[ QUOTE ]
HOWEVER, I don't think the fact that he raises about 5% of the time preflop necessarily means he raises with the BEST 5% of his hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Lots of bad players do this. I used to assume the opposite which caused me to miss out on opportunities. (like this one)

-Craig

Re: Calling down with TT
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am considering the weak-tight plan of folding preflop.



[/ QUOTE ]

That's not weak-tight, that's perfectly standard SSH advice. Miller says fold TT to PF 3-bets (and I would especially do so against more passive opponents), and I agree with him (absent a read that the PFRs are raising light).

My default play is to fold here. Cold-calling 3 is pretty lame -- capping is the only other alternative.

Re: Calling down with TT
 

Aren't we being pretty casual about accepting terms like "maniac" and "TAG" with a sample of just 50 hands?

If I don't have any more than this, I'm folding the TT to a 3-bet P/F.

bc