poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Sorry if this is an old topic, my searching skills are not g00t.

My dear mother is not worried so much about me losing my own money, but more about the people I'm taking it from. It's got me thinking.

Are we not, as habitually winning poker players, bigger leaches on society than people that abuse the unemployment/welfare program? We are taking money straight from the pockets of other people, granted a smaller population than that of the taxpayers of your given country.

That population obviously consists of many different types of people, some of which one might feel bad about taking from (pathological gamblers, bored housewives) and some not (frat boys, the guy on TILT).

But on the whole, do you figure they've put themselves at risk and thus are ultimately responsible? Are you providing them with entertainment, and your winnings off of them are the price of that entertainment?

If someone was walking down the street in front of you and dropped 20 bucks out of their pocket, would you pick it up and put it in yours?

I'm not trying to preach fire and brimstone or anything, I'm just wondering if this is something anybody's thought about.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

In poker (or any other gambling game), the playes voluntarily wager thier money, with the realization that they may lose it.

Your other examples (abusing welfare, picking up a dollar on the street, etc) do not involve the "loser" voluntarily putting their money at risk.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

that's not entirely true, some people don't realise how much debt thy are in, or are compulsive gamblers who can't stop themselves. i wouldn't copmpare it to leeching off society thogh, because winning poker players have a skill that they have worked for.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Not a leach? What service of any value do we provide to society? I take many things of value, both materially and in labor, when i spend the many thousands i have made. However, i have contributed nothing.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

I suppose it's not so akin to begging for money on the street, but does this skill that we've developed offer a service to anyone?

Though I suppose every form of business is aimed at taking money from other people, most offer something tangible in return (or the appearance of such).

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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that's not entirely true, some people don't realise how much debt thy are in, or are compulsive gamblers who can't stop themselves.

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They are voluntarily putting their money at risk.

If they are not being responsible about it, that's their own damn problem, and they will never kick the addiction by projecting blame onto others.

IMHO.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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Not a leach? What service of any value do we provide to society? I take many things of value, both materially and in labor, when i spend the many thousands i have made. However, i have contributed nothing.

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Taxes. Lots and lots of taxes.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Honestly I try not to think about the darker side of what you bring up.

I like to believe that in a free society individuals are responsible for their own choices and that they can live with the consequences.

I think the truly afflicted are probably in the minority in the on-line poker world and that most of them are just bad players who saw it on TV and think it's fun.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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Taxes. Lots and lots of taxes.

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haha, that's true. we basically are providing an avenue for the IRS to re-tax many dollars.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

poker players provide the same service that any entertainer provides. you pay them money, and they entertain you. if your entertainment is porn, hey go see the porn guy. if your entertainment is poker, then come down to the casino and pay your money to the house and the winning players. if baseball is your thing, yada yada yada

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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Not a leach? What service of any value do we provide to society? I take many things of value, both materially and in labor, when i spend the many thousands i have made. However, i have contributed nothing.

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Lots of people who work, aren't really contributing anything either. But since they have a "job" that is ok.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Lawyers don't actually make anything of value, most people deem them neccesary.

Managers, by definition, don't make anything of value but there are way too many of them.

Poker players don't provide a service but they do not drain society unless they're on the dole. The lottery is state run and I see poor people buying $20 worth of tix each week. Sure, the 40% tax is put into the community but these people honestly can't afford it.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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I think the truly afflicted are probably in the minority in the on-line poker world and that most of them are just bad players who saw it on TV and think it's fun.

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I actually have never met a habitually losing player in real life, though I have followed a few folks on party around from table to table. But yeah I agree that there is probably not too big a truly compulsive gambling population, though most of the folks I know that play on line have had their compulsive spurts.

Is it really a bunch of mes out there, who got turned on from watching on TV and I just happen to have learned it a little bit better than them?

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

When playing online, I never consider who I am taking money from. It doesn't bother me at all.

When I'm playing RL with my friends, I sometimes consider who I am playing against when I make a decision. I don't softplay them, but I am much more willing to gamble with a bad hand. For instance, might re-raise all-in with 33 because if I win, thats good, and if I lose, oh well I don't mind losing to soandso.

Playing live with strangers, I don't really care.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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are we not, as habitually winning poker players, bigger leaches on society than people that abuse the unemployment/welfare program? We are taking money straight from the pockets of other people...

I'm not trying to preach fire and brimstone or anything, I'm just wondering if this is something anybody's thought about.

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im a firm believer in individual accountability, that is to say, it is not up to me to judge other peoples' motivations. and further on that, they are the ones ultimately responsible for what risks they take and in determining what degree of risk is or is not acceptable to/for them. and it is they, and not me, who should decide what they want to do for entertainment and/or competitive stimulation.

regarding taking the money from the pockets of others? does walmart take money directly from the pockets of "mom & pop" businesses? of course they do. but that can be looked at in the context of whether they are doing a service or disservice in doing so.
on the one hand, they are probably providing goods at a cheaper price. on the other hand, they could be destroying the fabric of local ownership and pride in your business and individualized customer service, etc..

i guess all this is to say, that there are many factors/elements to such questions as regards being "leaches". while we as poker players are certainly not curing cancer, i dont think that the only validation one can attain HAS to neccessarily come from ones vocation. what we do with our lives overall, when away from the competition, as well as at it, i think is a more meaningful way of measuring these "greater" philosophical questions you are addressing.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Skilled poker players are often called "sharks" for a reason. It's not just a catchy phrase. Just as in nature, card sharks actively hunt for weak/inexperienced players in order to eat them alive. Really the whole idea of "table selection" is all about putting yourself in the situation so that you can take advantage of the weak/inexperienced for your own financial gain.

So is this a bad thing? I know I struggle with it myself sometimes when I see some maniac or uber calling station with the 80%+ VP$IP blow through a few hundred dollars in a short period of time. If someone with those stats is somehow able to run up a few hundred dollars at the beginning, I almost want to scream at them to logoff, withdrawal, and quit while they're ahead. Of course I never say that and sure enough they're broke a short while later.

I'm a practicing Catholic and I actually asked this question to my priest a few months back. He had never heard of online poker, so I had to explain the situation to him and he had several questions to ask. After some discussion, he concluded that as long as my opponents have the same opportunities for improvement that are available to me, and I have no reason to believe that my opponents are playing under the duress of intoxication/addiction, then it is not immoral.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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that's not entirely true, some people don't realise how much debt thy are in, or are compulsive gamblers who can't stop themselves.

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They are voluntarily putting their money at risk.

If they are not being responsible about it, that's their own damn problem, and they will never kick the addiction by projecting blame onto others.

IMHO.

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I agree completely. This whole way of thinking of behavior as a disease is such a cop out. If you are a good player you have an advantage over a bad one, however, it's a fair advantage. Most gamblers (especially poker players) fancy themselves good at what they do no matter how good or bad they truly are. They have the same opportunity as anyone to improve there game. Now, I know that some may have more of an aptitude than others but you they can still get better. Heck, I would be a huge contributer if I got in a game with some of the posters here, that's why I stick with low limit games I can beat. They can do the same thing as you or I can. Just start telling your mom you lose consistently and that should solve the problem.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Yes, entertainment value.

And if that isn't enough for you how about this, if you didn't take their money, someone else would, this someone could be immoral, therefore if you consider yourself amoral at worst, then your play is beneficial to society as money is at least flowing to persons with moral better.

BTW, I have found this affect me in live play. A seat opens up and an old granny who doesn't seem to have wealthy sits down with about $300 ($5/$10 limit HE). She knows a bit but is constantly getting outkicked and callind down with weak holdings. I get a good hand head to head with her and normally I would be aggressive, but this time I just call her bets and easily win the pot.
Does anyone soften up a bit in live play, other than for tactical reasons?

For instance, my decision to do this was easy, earlier the TAG at the table got aggressive with her and maximized his win, but the table was obviously annoyed/negative toward him, now this was a table with mostly loose passives who are socializing and having a grand ol time hemorging their chips. So, I passed up an this edge in head to head situation inorder to continue to keep the chips flowing from the rest of the table. However at the end of the night I wondered whether if the table was tough, if I do the same?

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Once gave an old granny $3 to fill out her chip rack when she cashed out because I felt sorry for her and as Happy Gilmore said "She's Old!" It's harder to be heartless to an old granny in person than to Bigsmacktalker23 on PP.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

I have no problem whatsoever. They would only have bought crack and beer with that money anyway.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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I have no problem whatsoever. They would only have bought crack and beer with that money anyway.

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Nobody buys crack and beer. If you're buying crack, you're washing it down with Mad Dog 20/20.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

It is the cost of enertainment for alot of people. Also...

If it isn't me making money then it is someone else.

I figure these people are going to lose their money at a casino, scratch tickets, at poker, so might as well be me better off.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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Are we not, as habitually winning poker players, bigger leaches on society than people that abuse the unemployment/welfare program? We are taking money straight from the pockets of other people, granted a smaller population than that of the taxpayers of your given country.

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Nope. We're more like entertainers and athletes.

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That population obviously consists of many different types of people, some of which one might feel bad about taking from (pathological gamblers, bored housewives) and some not (frat boys, the guy on TILT).

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We are not responsible for the weakness of others. There are helplines that are advertised plenty for people with problems.

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But on the whole, do you figure they've put themselves at risk and thus are ultimately responsible? Are you providing them with entertainment, and your winnings off of them are the price of that entertainment?

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Bingo.

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If someone was walking down the street in front of you and dropped 20 bucks out of their pocket, would you pick it up and put it in yours?

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No, that's an accident. I have returned $20 bills that I've seen people drop. But if they drop it on the table, it's in play.

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I'm not trying to preach fire and brimstone or anything, I'm just wondering if this is something anybody's thought about.

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I've thought about it briefly.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Never feel bad. This is a competition...when they sit in the game, their inherent goal is to take YOUR money. Play hard at anybody and don't worry about it.

Jeff

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

I actually love this aspect of poker.
I am a vampire, I rob others of their life energy and life force in order to exault my own. The same reason they can't afford shoes is the same reason mine shine. The same reason their girlfriends are ashamed and enfurated at them, is the same reason I split a bottle of pinot with mine. God himself didn't designate me to be a winning player, or them to be losers. These are acts of freewill. Ones living quality will always be the result of the critical decisions they make, and poker is a brutally honest. Everybody has a decision to make for themselves. <font color="red"> </font>
Idaho

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

"Not a leach? What service of any value do we provide to society?"

Rubbish. You pay tax. You spend your winnings on goods and services, where as the gamblers would just lose it. You are putting $$$ back in to your local economy, instead of it being given to an offshore company.

Even if you live in a tax free country (like me), you still spend your income and boost your local economy (more so than the average person, since we earn more). It goes even further for someone like me. I take money from non-Australians and bring the money into the Australian economy.

Our jobs might not provide a social benefit, but our incomes do. Plenty of normal jobs don't benefit society. Just because you offer a product or service doesn't make it beneficial. At least what we do doesn't hurt society, which is more than what you can say for alot of 'normal' or 'socially acceptable' jobs out there.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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Quote:
Are we not, as habitually winning poker players, bigger leaches on society than people that abuse the unemployment/welfare program? We are taking money straight from the pockets of other people, granted a smaller population than that of the taxpayers of your given country.



Nope. We're more like entertainers and athletes.

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Really? You don't seem all that entertaining.

The entertainment analogy isn't a very good one as people seek out entertainers for specifically what they are good at doing. While most casual gamblers don't care who they are playing with, and if given the option would chose to play with lesser skilled players.

If you're having doubts about the usefulness of your profession you are probably correct, and many people in other professions should feel the same way. So perhaps the solution is to not hoard all the money you can, and give some amount back in a useful way.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Yeah, I asked about this earlier in the psychology forum. Nobody really seems to know who's losing all this money to us. My guess is you've got some people who play poker instead of blackjack, and who expect to lose but want to gambool, and some others who are honestly trying to make money but either suck or are playing above their skill level.

As for demographics, who knows? There are a hell of a lot of college students playing, and I think as a whole they're probably long-term losers. Other than that, people who have enough excess income to lose a couple hundred dollars a month, or who have exceedingly poor financial management skills.

I don't really feel guilty about it. I figure they're trying to take my money too, it's just that I'm better at it. But, yes, there's no question my time could be used to help society in a more substantive but less financially rewarding way.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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But on the whole, do you figure they've put themselves at risk and thus are ultimately responsible? Are you providing them with entertainment, and your winnings off of them are the price of that entertainment?

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bingo! not so much as them paying for entertainment... i used to think a lot about this, and i used to feel bad about trying to take other's money, especially when i played with friends, but then i came to an important conclusion. they're trying to take my money! i don't think i should feel bad for being better than them, when they know full well what they're getting into.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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I have no problem whatsoever. They would only have bought crack and beer with that money anyway.

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Nobody buys crack and beer. If you're buying crack, you're washing it down with Mad Dog 20/20.

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I don't think I like the tone of your post...

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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Quote:
Are we not, as habitually winning poker players, bigger leaches on society than people that abuse the unemployment/welfare program? We are taking money straight from the pockets of other people, granted a smaller population than that of the taxpayers of your given country.



Nope. We're more like entertainers and athletes.

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Really? You don't seem all that entertaining.

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I wasn't answering for your entertainment.

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The entertainment analogy isn't a very good one as people seek out entertainers for specifically what they are good at doing. While most casual gamblers don't care who they are playing with, and if given the option would chose to play with lesser skilled players.

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Then they should play with their children for jellybeans.

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If you're having doubts about the usefulness of your profession you are probably correct, and many people in other professions should feel the same way.

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I have no doubts of the usefulness of my profession. Poker is not my profession, it's a profitable hobby.

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So perhaps the solution is to not hoard all the money you can, and give some amount back in a useful way.

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Like Tsunami Relief, United Way and United Cerebral Palsy?

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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If someone was walking down the street in front of you and dropped 20 bucks out of their pocket, would you pick it up and put it in yours?

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If you feel like you are picking money up off the streets, I envy your game selection skills.

If they can risk it, then it's up for grabs. We don't know each history or financial situation. We can only assume that money in play is leftover money after they've paid their bills, put a little away for Johnny's education, and donated to their IRA at the end of the month.

There are a quite a few people who make ends meet with poker because the profession they chose isn't a lucrative one, and learning to win at poker doesn't require a masters degree in mathematics or psychology.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

If you have an ethical dilemna about this why not decide to give a % of all your winnings to charity. That way you can pretend you're Robin Hood and give to the soup kitchens your opponents will surely be eating in soon. You can even where the outfit while you play. Personally I dress up like Friar Tuck but I'm kind of chubby and the Robin Hood outfit makes my thighs look fat.

I agree with the sentiment that the losing players are the same idiots who habitually play keno, scratch cards and slot machines. Some of them have money to burn but most are losing money that could be better spent elsewhere. Intellectually they know they will lose in the long term but they simply rationalize that it's entertainment and entertainment must be purchased. They are sustained by the few good hands they have and that's all they care about.


To become a winning player is hard work and takes brains and a great deal of study. Poker is fair and everyone has the same opportunity to improve themselves. If someone is not willing or able to put in that hard work or is incapable of learning a complicated system they should not gamble unless they see it as the price for entertainment. I know for a fact that these guys gladly keep my money when I lose to them so I do not mind keeping theirs when they lose to me.

This is one of the reasons why I won\'t \"go pro\"...
 

Right now I'm finishing up grad school... even though I am making substantially more money playing online poker in spare time now than I will at what most would consider a very well-paying "real" job that I will land when I graduate, I rule out the possibility of turning "pro" in poker. I basically have two reasons:

1) Job security: the legality issue in online poker may rear itsugly head one day; games may "dry up" as the public grows increasingly aware of the nature of poker (or at least the games may become more difficult to the point of not being as lucrative as a real job); you don't get health insurance, an opportunity for advancement/corporate respect, etc.

2) Morality of it. For some reason, taking a crapload of people's money in online poker doesn't bother me morally as long as it's not the primary source of income &amp; focus in my life. If I quit school or didn't take a "real job" after graduating, I think I would feel oppressive guilt. Also, we are really producing nothing by playing poker. Don't kid yourself... at the end of the day, you can't point to a player whose money you took and say "now there is a satisfied customer". Now I know there are a few rich fish who go online to blow a couple grand from time to time and do actually call that fun; but I also know personally some folks who lose ballpark 10% of their already meager income in online poker games, the 10% that ought to be going into savings for their kids' college accounts, etc. Unfortunately, I suspect these folks make up the majority of the losing players we benefit from.

Just my $.02

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

Personally, i see Poker as one of the purer forms of socialism, in that it acts as a form of wealth transfer from rich stupid people, to poor smart ones.

but that's just me...

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

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Personally, i see Poker as one of the purer forms of socialism, in that it acts as a form of wealth transfer from rich stupid people, to poor smart ones.

but that's just me...

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Hogwash.

Who starts rich and poor has no impact. There are plenty of "rich" people on this board who win money from broke degenerate gamblers and college kids.

However, it IS a transfer to the smart from the stupid, or rather, a transfer to the hard/smart worker from the lazy/dumb worker, which is pure capitalism. (Flame me all you want on this one, I won't respond)

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

I have been following one guy around for about a week now. He is absolutely the worst poker player I have ever seen. He has dropped over 5k so far and he doesn't seem to be losing steam at all or learning anything from his experience. He plays 5/10 6 max or 3/6 full and loses every time.

Yesterday I started feeling guilty and finally decided to give the guy a break after watching him dump 3 buyins at 5/10 6 max. I really hope hes not losing his paycheck and his kids will not eat this month. I don't know it just hit me about him yeserday.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

I like the socialism argument. :-)

It does stand to reason, after all, if you're going to lose serious money, you've pretty much got to be rich.

Seriously though, poker players don't contribute to society. I mean, you're not entertaining anybody at the table any more than they're entertaining you, and if you want to get down to it, the losing players are the most "entertaining" players at the tables. Nobody likes losing their money. There's nothing entertaining about that at all.

If you're game is going to appear on the Travel Channel, then maybe you could claim to be an entertainer. Otherwise, no.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

As far as I'm concerned, playing at the poker table is like competition. I do not worry about it, it ultimately is not your responsibility to help these people in their lives. Most of these people you encounter you don't even have an interpersonal relationship with them. This is different than having someone drop 20 bucks on the street, since at the poker table, players understand that the money in front of them is at risk, and can go to anybody. They have full knowledge of what is going on and the situation, unlike the 20 dollar dropping scenario

To put it simply, if you win the lottery, are you stealing from taxpayers and the education system?

As compared to, say, robbing a bank.

Re: poker ethics: do you wonder about who you\'re taking money from?
 

I consider it unethical to play poker for anything other than symbolic money.

But not as unethical as many other ways people make money everyday.

Poker-losers are not as bad off, as many other unfortunates of this world.

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks