AQ...
 

hmm.. would anyone play this differently?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 folds, MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB

Re: AQ...
 

I like raising the flop here.

Re: AQ...
 

Preflop - raise like you did
Flop - call like you did
Turn - I'm just calling here
River - I check here and see what happens, board is too scary for me.

Re: AQ...
 

Call the turn and check/call the river. The pot is huge and you have to go to showdown, but you might as well minimize your cost at this point.

PF/Flop play seems solid.

Re: AQ...
 

Preflop: Good
Flop: I raise here, what's CO betting? Most likely a PP that is still overpair but isn't very strong, more likely could just be overcards. Definitely wanna make the flush draws think twice about drawing out.

Turn: Likely flush, less likely straight. I think I wuss out and call down from here.

River: Ouch, that makes a straight more likely. I think I fold when I'm checkraised.

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop - raise like you did

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed.


[/ QUOTE ]Flop - call like you did

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising is much better as it knocks out players behind you, improving your chances of winning.


[/ QUOTE ]Turn - I'm just calling here

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why call the flop? If you only call when the card drops that you want, why continue on the flop?.


[/ QUOTE ]River - I check here and see what happens, board is too scary for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I probably check this river as well, in spite of UTG open folding. However, you're playing scared. When you play scared you only win when you end up having the best hand. When you play aggressively you pick up a lot of pots through your aggressive play. To all the posters who advocated checking and calling the turn, ask yourself why you are in the hand. If you catch one of the cards that you wanted, why are you playing scared? If you didn't want an Ace, why didn't you fold on the flop? When you're in a hand you need to have a plan. If an Ace falls on the turn, and you intend on checking and letting players who might be behind you at that point draw out on you, then all you were hoping for was a Queen, and you don't have the odds on the flop to continue if you're hoping for just a queen.

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]


I like raising the flop here.


[/ QUOTE ]


I'll echo that. It looks to me like you were trying to execute a slow play here, popping one on the turn. Playing hands like this will evolve into a major major leak if you aren't careful. Your hand is vulnerable, the pot is big, and you obviously think you have the best hand on the flop (you played like you had the best hand on the turn after you lost a lot of equity). Don't get into the habit of being cute. Making a raise standard here will help you significantly.

Re: AQ...
 

pre flop is standard but on the flop when CO bets you are in perfect position to raise. Notice how everyone before CO has checked and with the person next to you betting you can force a lot of people out of the pot by raising (notice now everyone else must call 2 bets cold to play on and are unlikely to do so). By making people fold you increase your chances of winning the pot and clear up your overcard outs (people will fold A's and Q's for 2 bets cold).

Turn play is ok.

Bet the river. Call his raise. You may be beat but checking here is weak.

Re: AQ...
 

Raise the flop.

After you got check-raised on the turn, no betting on the river. Just call.

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

After you got check-raised on the turn, no betting on the river. Just call.

[/ QUOTE ]
pardon?

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

After you got check-raised on the turn, no betting on the river. Just call.

[/ QUOTE ]
pardon?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, whoops. He was check-raised on the river. Ummm after the scare card, I would probably let it check through on the river. Or you can bet and see if you get raised again.

Hell, what do I know. It's just cards.

Re: AQ...
 

I raise the flop. The pot is large, and I want to protect my hand. I play the turn the same. I'm not sure about the river. Could an arguement be made for checking?

&lt;/GRUNCHING&gt;

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the flop. The pot is large, and I want to protect my hand. I play the turn the same. I'm not sure about the river. Could an arguement be made for checking?

&lt;/GRUNCHING&gt;

[/ QUOTE ]

why let villan(s) check through hands you beat. MP2 could just as easily have a weaker A up until the c/r on the river. I would consider just calling if someone bet in front of me, but you have 2 people left to act and it has been checked to you. I bet.

Re: AQ...
 

I think you've gotta raise or fold the flop here, and if you feel you can't raise the turn when one of the best possible cards for you falls, you should have folded on the flop to begin with.

On the river, you have to bet. There are plenty of worse hands that will call you. I think that half the reason why people are saying to check behind on the river is because they saw you get check/raised. That sucks, but you can't let that skew your reasoning on future hands when you've got an easy value bet here. Next time, you'll get a better response if you cut off the action at your decision.

Re: AQ...
 

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around these concepts (how much you win with a bet when you're ahead, how much you lose when you're behind). This is, for me, a difficult section of SSHE. Could you elaborate a bit more? Regardless, I definitely need to do some re-reading.

Re: AQ...
 

You've gotta think about what hands your opponent could be playing, and what of those will call here. He could easily have Ax, and he'll call with it and you win. He might even have 3x, and might call with it and you win. He might have been betting a newfound flush draw holding one club, but now he won't call. There aren't really any hands that will just call the river, but beat you (AK is unlikely). He might have 5x, been betting his gutshot, and now you're boned. To me, the chance of that is small compared to the chances of getting called and winning. That makes betting out the best option.

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you catch one of the cards that you wanted, why are you playing scared? If you didn't want an Ace, why didn't you fold on the flop? When you're in a hand you need to have a plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice. Thank you! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AQ...
 

I'd raise the flop here too

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop - raise like you did
Flop - call like you did
Turn - I'm just calling here
River - I check here and see what happens, board is too scary for me.



[/ QUOTE ]


Preflop - raise like you did
Flop - no, raise
Turn - no, raise
River - no, bet for value

Re: AQ...
 

All is fine, except, making your decision on checking. I strongly advise checking, but why would you check? Check with intention to call, check with intention to raise, check with intention to fold, keep these in mind.

Re: AQ...
 

What does a raise accomplish here on the flop? Protection? Anyone with two clubs has the odds to call you (next to act is getting 6.25:1 odds). Anyone with an OESD has the odds to call you. Are you hoping to beat out Ax hands which, if you spike an Ace, you most likely have beat already? You have no made hand so it's certainly not for value.

I think you call this flop and if you improve on the turn with a non-scary card, that's when you set it off. Waiting for the turn protects your hand better as flush and straight draws will not have the correct odds to call you there. Unfortunately, the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] improves both draws and makes it more likely one of them is complete.

To OP -

I like the hand. I'm split between playing the river as you did or just C/C it.

Re: AQ...
 

Without looking at the other responses, I would say raise the flop and the rest looks OK.

MP2 had a 5?

Re: AQ...
 

There are very, very few flops where you can offer flushes and OESDs improper odds to call. There are far more where they are making money with every bet that goes into the pot. You should virtually never be thinking about protecting your hand from these. You can protect from gutshots, however, and raising accomplishes that.

Re: AQ...
 

This post is exactly right, raising the flop here is pointless unless you actually think you have the best hand.

-DeathDonkey

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Without looking at the other responses, I would say raise the flop and the rest looks OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 had a 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or 2 clubs?

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This post is exactly right, raising the flop here is pointless unless you actually think you have the best hand.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I'm surprised at everyone recommending raising as well. I personally think that calling &gt; folding &gt; raising in this situation.

Re: AQ...
 

Thanks, that makes sense. I'll do some thinking about this.

Re: AQ...
 

blind....

I have read many times in SSH and on this site that you should not bet on the river if you think your beat. The theory goes that you will pay 2 bets if you have second best hand if you bet on the river, but only pay one bet if you don't bet on the river and just call for a showdown. I think this is a good place to check/call. I play the turn and flop the same.

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
What does a raise accomplish here on the flop? Protection? Anyone with two clubs has the odds to call you (next to act is getting 6.25:1 odds). Anyone with an OESD has the odds to call you. Are you hoping to beat out Ax hands which, if you spike an Ace, you most likely have beat already? You have no made hand so it's certainly not for value.

I think you call this flop and if you improve on the turn with a non-scary card, that's when you set it off. Waiting for the turn protects your hand better as flush and straight draws will not have the correct odds to call you there. Unfortunately, the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] improves both draws and makes it more likely one of them is complete.

To OP -

I like the hand. I'm split between playing the river as you did or just C/C it.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO this is a very good situation to raise. Your relative position is great to the bettor, it's not extremely unlikely that you have the best hand, you give gutshots and 5/6-out hands like T9 poor odds to call, and you can possibly clean up overcards.

Re: AQ...
 

By making people fold you increase your chances of winning the pot and clear up your overcard outs (people will fold A's and Q's for 2 bets cold).

This is a misapplication of this concept. There are only a few rare cases where it would be correct to "clean up outs" here.

1) Someone has a hand like 88 and folds. The turn is an ace/queen and then the river is an 8.

2) Someone has AK and folds and then an ace hits.

3) We currently have the worst hand + someone has 52 and folds + we hit an ace to win.

4) We currently have the worst hand + someone has a hand like AJ and folds + the turn and river come exactly A/J.

These scenarios will almost never manifest in this hand. The best time to "clear up" outs is when you are likely to be dominated. Only one hand dominates AQ, and that hand probably isn't out there.

Brad

Re: AQ...
 

I think I changed my vote. I don't think we have enough of a hand to raise with on the flop. Calling looks better.

Re: AQ...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I changed my vote. I don't think we have enough of a hand to raise with on the flop. Calling looks better.

[/ QUOTE ]

- Let me give you some scenarios in this hand.

Let's say that the bettor has 99 and that some guy behind us has KQ. Do we really want to knock out the KQ? (Assume that flush draws aren't important).

Our equity with the KQ in there is 22.0%. If we knock the KQ out, our equity jumps to 25.7%. Meh.


- Now let's say that the flop bettor has AT and someone behind us has KQ. Do we want to knock the KQ out?

With the KQ, our equity is 65.6% If we can knock him out, it jumps up to 78.2%. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


So the idea of "cleaning up" outs is only useful in a couple of circumstances:

1) You have the best hand.
2) You don't think that you have the best hand, but you think that you can get dominated hands to fold (or hands that could potentially give someone a straight). So if you have AQ on a AKJ board and your two opponents had AJ and T9, you should raise to knock out the T9 (you can now win if you hit a queen).

So in this hand, we should only raise the flop IFF we think that our AQ is good. If we don't feel like our AQ is good, we should call or fold. Now, if we had A5 in this hand (instead of AQ) we should be MORE inclined to raise eventhough our hand is weaker. If we can get a hand like AT to fold, we might have just bought two more outs for our A5.

Brad

Re: AQ...
 

Good post. Thanks.