Starting Hands UTG
 

Average Party Poker 3/6 table:
How do you play this hands UTG?

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/18...CMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

There should be only one option for all but KJo.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

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There should be only one option for all but KJo.

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Axs can be played UTG in a very loose-passive game, but should normally be folded in all other games.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

The option I was referring to was "I vary my play." KJo is a fold.

Sometimes I would call with AQo I guess because I would hate to be at a super aggro table, get 3 bet behind and flop a pair OOP. I guess I could fold it sometimes too.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

KTs, QTs and JTs can be played differently, FWIW.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

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The option I was referring to was "I vary my play." KJo is a fold.

Sometimes I would call with AQo I guess because I would hate to be at a super aggro table, get 3 bet behind and flop a pair OOP. I guess I could fold it sometimes too.

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I gotcha. But then you're really saying there should only be one option for all of them.

If I were at a table where I thought folding AQo UTG is correct for the reasons you described, I'd probably go find another table. Limping seems terrible, so I'd raise. Yes, you can vary your play, but if you always raise, you're not making too much of a mistake as long as you're solid post-flop.

Thanks for the responses!
 

I 'm amazed, that the large majority of you is raising with AJo and KQo. I doubt, that these hands are profitable in this position, although I 'm also limping or raising with it.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

I find it interesting that SSH was mentioned and most people said the answers were mostly obvious, yet the vast majority of people said to raise AJo UTG. SSH suggests raising AJo in EP at a loose (6-8 to the flop) table, which doesn't describe Party 3/6, and calling with AJo in EP at a tight (3-5 to the flop) table, which does describe typical Party 3/6.

So, what gives?

Re: Thanks for the responses!
 

There are several reasons to raise with AJo UTG. First, you are hopefully at a table with at least a few weak players. A not insignificant numer of times you will end up against just these players to see the flop, and you will have a better hand your share of the time. And hopefully, they are not too tricky after the flop, so it's pretty easy to play well against them after the flop.

Often, if you're 3-bet by a solid player, postflop play isn't too too difficult. Of course, it's not good to be 3-bet and you're not going to make your money off the times when you are 3-bet (by solid players). But, in some regards, it's easier to play AJo than AKo after you're 3-bet, because you can get away from a lot of flops with AJo without giving up on very many situations where you are actually ahead. OTOH, AKo is tricker to play because any of folding, calling, or raising could be right depending on your opponent's holding, and so you usually have to estimate his range of hands pretty accurately and use that information properly in order to make the best play. (That's not to say that you prefer to have AJo instead of AKo, but only that playing AJo is a certain degree more straightforward.)

Lastly, if you're talking about playing a hand whose EV may be close to 0 (as AJo UTG may be at a tough table; I think there are probably many 3/6 tables where it shows a nice profit of >0.1 BB/hand by a good player), it's probably better to push the envelope, provided you can withstand the variance. This has two benefits:
(1) It makes it harder for the other competent players at the table to read you, thereby increasing the chances that they will make a significant mistake against you.
(2) It gives you opportunities to play in tough situations, which is bound to increase your poker skill if you analyze them after the fact.

Only if you have good reason to believe that AJo UTG is unprofitable would it be right to fold the hand. From the stats people post, there's no reason to believe that, though. I'm primarily a 2/4 player, and I would say that there are more tables where ATo is probably profitable UTG than there are tables where AJo is not profitable UTG. I suspect that good table selection and good postflop play can make it profitable to raise ATo UTG in certain situations in low-limit games like 2/4 and 3/6, though I suspect it's such a small profit (or loss) that it is likely close to impossible to ever prove or disprove such an assertion statistically.

Re: Thanks for the responses!
 

Excellent post.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

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So, what gives?

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Forum consensus is looser and more aggressive than SSH.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

Raise AJ/AQ/KQ. Fold KJ. Limp with KTs-JTs. I usually fold A-crap up front but will play A9s and A8s.

Brad

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that SSH was mentioned and most people said the answers were mostly obvious, yet the vast majority of people said to raise AJo UTG. SSH suggests raising AJo in EP at a loose (6-8 to the flop) table, which doesn't describe Party 3/6, and calling with AJo in EP at a tight (3-5 to the flop) table, which does describe typical Party 3/6.

So, what gives?

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Miller himself said on here he raises AJo UTG.

Those pages in SSHE are for beginner types. At some point you learn to not make preflop choices by rules.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

yeah, although most of the time i will raise KTs (depends on table)...

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

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At some point you learn to not make preflop choices by rules.

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But this thread is all about the question, "You're UTG with X, what do you do" with no other info. Clearly, if you're in a later position where number of limpers, your read of the limpers/raisers, etc. come into play, I wholeheartedly agree. But that doesn't seem to apply here to me. You're UTG with "X" at a "typical table -- what do you do? This looks like pretty straightforward preflop play by rules.

Given that Ed says he raises, but he suggests limping in SSH, I guess he's saying the better you are, the more likely you should be to raise rather than call with AJo up front.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

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Sometimes I would call with AQo I guess because I would hate to be at a super aggro table, get 3 bet behind and flop a pair OOP.

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Yeah, this would be a freakin nightmare.

Re: Starting Hands UTG
 

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most of the time i will raise KTs (depends on table)...

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Re: Thanks for the responses!
 

in regards to AJo and KQo; I first of all have been limping with them most of the time and tried to raise on a few occasions. but i am wondering if i shouldnt try raising 1st in instead. here are my stats for the hands;

AJo
135 times
BB/100 -.02
win % 36.3
W$WSF 34.38
PFR% 21.48
RFI% 18.52
LwPC 11.11
WtSD 33.59
W$SD 51.16

KQo


136 times

BB/100 .27

W$WSF 36.22
PFR% 6.62
RFI% 6.62
LwPC 10.29
WtSD 24.21
W5SD 67.74




any thougths are welcomed.

Re: Thanks for the responses!
 

I raise with AJ KQ utg now all the time.

Re: Thanks for the responses!
 

The poker room ev charts show +.03 for AJ UTG and +.06 UTG for KQ. AQ is +.21, showing the massive difference between AQ and AJ. AJ in UTG+1 is +.10 also showing how much it sucks to be UTG.

From my 2/4 and 3/6 perspective:

I tend to raise AJ, but I'm leaning towards just calling. I'm starting to think raising UTG just puts me up against hands I'm an underdog to (pockets and bigger aces). Calling tends to drag in Axo from fish that I dominate. If an AQ later raises it, then at least I've got the dominated hands to help make the subsequent call more profitable/less costly.

KQ I tend to raise a bit more, figuring only AK or AK have me dominated and I'm more likely to have top pair or overcards. AJ often misses and only has A as an overcard. I used to play more cards UTG, but these days I'm aiming for about 10VPIP. UTG is just not a happy place.