How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

So new experience for me..not sure if this is standard or not.

Last night I was playing 2-3 tables of 10/20 6MAX.

I found this one amazing table. One weak tightie, one semi-LAG, and three total LAGS. Two of the LAGs are taking turns berating each other and it eventually becomes clear that one of them (if not more) appears to be drunk.

Very drunk! He would regularly raise, 3-bet and cap with absoultely anything. 94o, T3o, no problem. All the way to the river. Every time. I took down five 20-26 BB pots against this guy with A high, bottom pair, an underpair and a couple legit hands. I was playing 35/23/2 poker and had a pretty dominant table image. I bought in at $500 and cashed out at $3028. Up 126 BB. 67 BB against the drunk alone.

The other uber-LAG had been seated at the table longer than me and eventually began telling the drunk guy to call 1-800-GAMBLER and to leave the table and stop playing even though he was also profiting from the guys play. He was saying the guy was down 2500 when I only had him down 1200 in my PT/PV. I tried asking the guy casually if he was rich/did the money mean anything to him, etc? At one point I echoed the LAGs sentiment and told him in chat that I also thought he should stop if the amounts of money meant something to him.

I never got a response to my questions and I left the table because I didn't feel comfortable taking his money any longer.

FWIW, I'm a Christian and I feel a sense of concern for my fellow man's wellbeing. I know someone else will just sit and take his money but at this point it was starting to feel similar to taking dollar bills out of a guy's wallet who passed out on the street.

Anyone ese ever experience this kind of thing? How would you deal with this scenario?

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

Take as much as he's willing to give. IMO the ethical line is between playing poker or just not playing at all. If you want to play, you're going to have to live with the fact that you'll be winning money from people who probably can't afford to lose it. It doesn't matter if you're taking it all in 30 minutes or if you're just one of many players who's slowly bleeding him dry.

I don't tend to have these types of ethical problems. The fact that someone else will be taking the money if it's not you seems like justification enough to me. Especially if you do something constructive with atleast some of the money you win.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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I don't tend to have these types of ethical problems. The fact that someone else will be taking the money if it's not you seems like justification enough to me. Especially if you do something constructive with atleast some of the money you win.

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Amen bleed that guy for all he is worth.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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If you want to play, you're going to have to live with the fact that you'll be winning money from people who probably can't afford to lose it.

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Hmmmmm...... do others agree with this?

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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If you want to play, you're going to have to live with the fact that you'll be winning money from people who probably can't afford to lose it.

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Hmmmmm...... do others agree with this?

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It's sort of a part of the game. Not everyone is an intelligent bankroll-managing poker player. Many are degenerate gamblers who get paid on friday and take it to teh table drunk so they can gamble it up.

I've been casino whoring lately, and it definitely makes me more comfortable to be pulling money away from the house.

Reading articles like this one shows you the range of players you can be up against. You won't know if it's some executive having a good time with a couple hundred or a guy like "Tom" who has a gambling problem that has ruined his life.

Freakin

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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I never got a response to my questions and I left the table because I didn't feel comfortable taking his money any longer.

FWIW, I'm a Christian and I feel a sense of concern for my fellow man's wellbeing. I know someone else will just sit and take his money but at this point it was starting to feel similar to taking dollar bills out of a guy's wallet who passed out on the street.

Anyone ese ever experience this kind of thing? How would you deal with this scenario?

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Q) How many big bets should you take off a drunk?
A) All of them!

Seriously, if someone is foolish enough to play drunk, they're foolish enough to pay the price. Would he feel guilty about sucking you out on a 1-2 outer for a big pot?

As a Christian, I believe it's out job to be honest and straightforward with our fellow man. A sound drubbing at the tables will show him that 1) maybe he shouldn't play drunk or 2) maybe shouldn't be at these limits or 3) try a different game.

Up $2500 is a wonderful night. Would I be bad person if I prayed I ran into this guy at 2/4? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

Feel bad only where it's appropriate. Feel bad about taking your fellow man's money in an unfair arena, not a fair one. You know, something more like what lots of people do at work every day, not at the poker table. The poker table is a completely fair arena where everyone knows the rules and nobody has a head start or undue influence, unlike pretty much the entire rest of life.

One of the things that makes it fair is that it is clearly understood by eery player that the entire object of the game is winning money from other people. Therefore, not playing accordingly would be making a special, disadvantageous rule set just for yourself that nobody else is making for themselves and which everyone else would find absurd to make for themselves. Not competing fully is entirely against the whole concept of the game in the first place. If you are going to sabotage yourself by playing according to rules that don't exist and that other people do not play by, have no reason to play by, and cannot be expected to play by, the one game you should NOT be playing is poker. Go play something else.

Another thing to keep in mind is that most people do not play poker for money. If they did, they would all be reading 2+2 books, studying them repeatedly, playing within their bankrolls, probably not drinking while they play, and doing all sorts of things that the vast majority of them do not do. They don't, though, because winning money is only one reason to play poker, and probably not the most popular one. Other goals based around the game include socializing, excitement, the pure allure of mere gambling, and, for live casinos, getting out of the house and drinking with friends and strangers, and meeting new people.

So if people lose money, most don't even care that much. Even if they make a bit of a fuss at the time -- after all, winning is always more fun than losing. But they don't care enough to stay away from poker, or to learn how to play it. Their concern is cursory. Money is not their goal. So don't sweat it when they lose it; all bickering and whining aside, they usually don't sweat it much either. And, quite often, win or lose, they'll happily come back the next day or next week, just as unconcerned, just as happy to play.

If you see someone live who is obviously incapacitated mentally by drugs or booze, it's one thing, but even there, most drunks are well aware of what they are doing; they just give themselves more permission to do it than they ever would while they were sober. Doing so is one of the main reasons people like to get drunk in the first place. Being out of control is different than even being very drunk. If the Christian in you flares up when someone is merely drunk, it's premature. Save your conscience for when you need it.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

5,000. Then I would post about it on the 2+2 forums in a brag/probability post.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

I've pondered this often, especially because I treat people with addictive disorders in my practice. As a forensic psychologist, I also do competency and sanity evaluations for the courts, and it is there that I find some authority for my decision. In evaluating sanity, voluntary intoxication is not considered a defense or a mitigating factor. That is, when choosing to get drunk, the individual is fully aware that there are consequences to his/her behavior. I did not cause the drunk to drink. I did not cause him to play poker. He made those choices. I see no ethical problem with relieving him of his money, and feel no obligation to protect him from the consequnces of his decision.

Should he approach me at any time and ask for my help, I would give him the appropriate referrals and discourage him from playing. Until then, it is his choice to lose his money.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

Online I'd take him for as much as I could. Live I'd draw the line somewhere depending on how much the money meant to him.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

How many BBs does he have?

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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How many BBs does he have?

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on the table, in his pockets, in his bank accounts, on his credit cards.


Poker is a predatory game. Prey on the weak.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

I like playing online because I don't have to look at the people I'm taking for thousands of dollars. They're just letters on a screen, so it doesn't mean anything to me. If I had to sit at a casino and watch someone siphon away two grand in a few hours, I may feel a bit uncomfortable. Online, they're just a bunch of letters and numbers that let my other numbers grow (bank account). I take him for everything I can.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

The money will leave his hands one way or another.

-SmileyEH

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

If he is really drunk you might be able to just take his wallet and save a lot of rake.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

When you play winning poker, you take other people's money. How fast it happens does not matter. Break a guy during one session, or take his money slowly over a few weeks, it's all the same.

I don't play such high limits, so the money I have won from drunks is just small change. But I would play my best game against anyone who sits down, drunk or not. And I would add this drunk to my buddy list and search for him next weekend.

olavfo

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

This thread got me to wondering where the line is drawn. IF you feel comfortable relieving drunks (obviously incapacitated) of their money, would you feel comfortable taking money from someone who is clearly mentally unstable/slow?

Then, in turn, this made me wonder - do mentally handicapped people gamble? This sounds like I'm joking around, but I'm not. I've never seen a retarded person in a casino, much less at a poker table. Has anyone else here?

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

There was a thread about that very subject a while ago. Online, I'd take all I can of a mentally handicapped person, but in a live game, I would feel really uncomfortable. I may go for it anyway, but I wouldn't be too proud of myself.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

Do what you think is right. There is no "standard" when it comes to personal ethics.

Me? I'd have stayed at that table as long as he did.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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If you want to play, you're going to have to live with the fact that you'll be winning money from people who probably can't afford to lose it.

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Hmmmmm...... do others agree with this?

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Yes, the fact is that probably most people can afford what they lose. But there will be a certain percentage of people who you will win money from, that should not be putting that money at risk.

I really don't try to justify this in any way. I would have stayed at that table as long as I was playing well.

People are responsible for their own actions. It is really a personal decision for you. IF you feel this is in direct conflict with your religious beliefs, you should either stop playing altogether, or limit your play to the microlimits (.02/.04, .05/.10).

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

I'd take as much as possible while encouraging them to seek help (at 10/20 that is, at micro limits I am just taking the money.

Why do I do this? Because, if he's going to lose his money, he may as well lose it to me. You aren't going to help him by leaving (maybe he'll lose a 5 BB less to worse players, but probably not, he'll just lose the same amount over a longer period of time.) so at least try to encourage him to get help (once you have made a tidy profit) then continue to try to help him while you help yourself.

Yes it doesn't feel good, but this is poker. At least you are another voice getting him to seek help, while if you leave there is just one more person milking him without helping.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

Does he have any gold fillings? Suck those out of his teeth if you can. I also hear that used pacemakers are worth a lot too.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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If he is really drunk you might be able to just take his wallet and save a lot of rake.

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Brilliant.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

I used to stuggle with this in B & M not really people that were drunk but people that could not afford to play and were sacraficing there well being, not to mention they were compulsive gamblers my though that I have come to a couple conclusions
1) If your not gonna take there money at the poker table...some one else is
2) Casinos do this all the time theres a reason why they serve alchol at most casinos
3) Theres no reason you shouldnt hes gonna find a way to lose his money either way.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

just leaving the table doesn't fix anything. he's just going to lose the money to someone else.

leaving is no better than taking his money. if you want to help him, you have to get him to stop playing... or you can just win all his money off him and give it to him when he's not drunk.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

You shouldn't be looking at this one instance. You need to ask yourself how you feel about personal responsability.

Poker is a game (at least in 2+2 terms, where EV is G_D) of systematically exploiting any edge available left to you by your oponents sub-optimal play.

I'm not saying that there aren't huge moral/ethical dilemna here, i'm saying that you're deluding yourself if you think the question is somehow confined to this one drunk guy.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

infinity bets.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?

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words words words

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all of it.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

At the end of the day, we are all trying to win money from people who are at some sort of disadvantage to us. If you are uncomfortable with that, don't study, read books, come to this forum, etc. Don't play poker.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

every dollar he's willing to sit down with.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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If you want to play, you're going to have to live with the fact that you'll be winning money from people who probably can't afford to lose it.

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Hmmmmm...... do others agree with this?

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absolutely. Ethics lie in play/don't play. No ethics at the table.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

I completely agree...unfortunately, a sad reality of poker is that some people choose to play with money they cannot afford to lose. This fact destroys the image of what is a great game, but it cannot be avoided. But professional players shouldn't be expected to sacrifice high EV situations; if people are not responsible with their finances, they deserve to lose their money.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

All of them.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

I'd personally carry him to the atm machine if it was live and he was too drunk to walk. This is poker, we play for money, enter at your own risk.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

This sort of situation can be very tricky. We are all playing to make money, but is there a line that you cross on a topic like this? I, honestly, have no clue. I have never been in such an extreme situation before, so I think you did what you could. Some of the players mentioned for him to look elsewhere, etc. You took what you needed to, you shouldn't feel bad.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

i know i shouldnt answer a question with a question, but if your kids were starving would you even be bothered by the fact that this guy was drunk and giving you money? i dont think so. drunk people are to poker players what an easy day at the office is to people who have 9 to 5's. you walk in, you sit down, you collect maximum money for minimal work. my question to you is what more are you looking for? of course sexual gratification while doing all this would be nice, but lets be realistic.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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I've been casino whoring lately, and it definitely makes me more comfortable to be pulling money away from the house.

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You are getting paid by the house, but you are still indirectly profitting from the gambling fools, because they are the ones that make it profitable for the house to offer the bonuses that you can exploit to make money. This is also true of card counting live blackjack games or any other form of advantage play against house banked games. I would much rather win money from a rich person to whom the money he is losing is not too important than from a compulsive gambler who is blowing the rent money, but you really can never be sure, especially online.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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If you want to play, you're going to have to live with the fact that you'll be winning money from people who probably can't afford to lose it.

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maybe it's rationalizing it, but that not my place to decide if they can or cannot afford what they're losing. just when you think you've got someone pegged as "rich/poor" they'll surprise you.

look at it this way, they're gonna lose the money to someone, so it might as well be me, because i'm poor. if you feel bad about taking his money, give it to charity or do some good with it.

in answer to the question in the subject line: All of them.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

I've been thinking about this a bit since reading all the responses.

Interesting note...numerous people refer to the concept of "the line." Some suggest the line is determined when you decide to play poker. There is no longer any line.

Small stakes--I agree. Teaching someone a lesson--great. Profiting yourself--cool.


Others, some successful higher stakes players, seem to feel that there is a line that exists even at the table.

While playing online may make it impossible to discern it could theoretically become possible in live play. For anything above small stakes I think I fall into this camp. I still think its pretty subjective though but I have appreciated all of your responses.

Re: How many BB you feel comfortable taking off a drunk at 10/20?
 

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This thread got me to wondering where the line is drawn. IF you feel comfortable relieving drunks (obviously incapacitated) of their money, would you feel comfortable taking money from someone who is clearly mentally unstable/slow?

Then, in turn, this made me wonder - do mentally handicapped people gamble? This sounds like I'm joking around, but I'm not. I've never seen a retarded person in a casino, much less at a poker table. Has anyone else here?

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There was a thread a while back, as another poster mentioned, in which someone told a story about playing against a mentally handicapped person in a B&M. The poster raised pf w/ a big pair, I think, the retard (I know, I know, not the preferred nomenclature) called, flop came unders to the pair w/ two to a flush. Poster bet, tard raised, poster 3-bet, tard called. Turn brought third flush card, and the retarded gentleman started grunting and acting visibly excited. Poster bet, tard raised, poster folded. The retard showed seven high. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Really, I think that if someone voluntarily sits down at a poker table, no matter who they are, or what their condition, they're fair game.