TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

In one of the last scenes in Rounders, TeddyKGB throws his cards on the table after the nut straight is revealed. There has been a lot of supposition posted about what his cards were so I did a screen (see below) shot of the divx version of the movie using Premiere. It looks like a pair of tens in the screen shot - can someone who as seen the script verify this?

http://www.imgmag.com/images/beernut...kgbs_cards.jpg

doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

this whole movie, as good as it was for poker, was pretty lame. How many people would have went broke on that hand with the stack sizes as big as they were. 50-100 blinds 300x the blind or more in front of you. Not to mention the totally amatuer tells Mike gave off. His play through the whole hand screams monster. I also like how he has unreal wins time after time. Example the cop game, he was up $4200 in a $20-40 game after 5-6 hours at the most. Not impossible just one hell of a monster session. Overall it was an entertaining flick and I heard that there is a sequel in the works.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

my guess is top set....


"Not to mention the totally amatuer tells Mike gave off. His play through the whole hand screams monster"

this is based on 1 hand that youre seeing out of about 8 hours of play...if you sat there that long, fatigue can set in and you can miss the obvious...

a real life example? the world poker championship that hmberto won over erik seidel....i put a post on it....i watched the last 15-20 mins of it and read both players on the last hand. it was obvious ot me...but i wasnt there playing for however long it took to get to the final table...

one thing this movie didnt show, which saved about 10+ hours, was the amount of folding and waiting that goes into winning play. there's mention of it, but they dont show it..

it wouldnt be much of a movie to show all the sessions these guys were playing. so they only showed the winning sessions minus one when he got bluffed off a pot...

who wants to watch losing sessions? not the average moviegoer...

would many have gone broke on that final hand as you said? well, ive never played for that high a stake, but ive read enough about it that , yes, some will. and the longer some play, the more careless some play. how many times has someone gone broke for a lesser amount, but relative to their bankroll? if they even had a BR....alot...ever played with an addict on a LL table? they can really be pathetic. but profitable [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

not even some of the best players are immune to this...

again see the seidel example....noo way he shouldve called humberto's bet. even though it 'was' a tourney, fatigue is fatigue, and bad judgement is bad judgement...

just some thoughts

b

the last bet.................
 

Let's assume KGB has top set. He puts Mike on a draw. There is no reason to drastically overbet the pot here. If he raed Mike for a busted draw why move in. That's just bad poker. There is no way he'll call, why not bet a lesser amount? The only time you are gonna get called here is when you are beat. Remember we're talkin about the best players in the NY underground here.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

i also think due to the situation they couldn't really be read as tells. mikey seemed to be a fairly straight forward player in teddy's mind. he probably read mikey's "tells" as frustrations, knowing that if he doesn't hit this so called draw, he's seriously screwed, but he had no other plays, as the clock was ticking.

plus teddy was pretty damn cocky.

one thing i'd also like to stress... IT'S A MOVIE!!!!! this reminds me of the sci-fi geeks that pick apart sci-fi movies. "there is no way that class IV starcruiser could make that jump to light speed that close to a blackhole!!" (complete with nasally voice, and snorty laughs)

heh, i enjoyed it for what it was... a movie.

Glad someone else noticed
 

I'm just glad somebody else noticed the huge wins they were having in 20-40, Mike had that one w/the cops for $4200, and even before that worm (even though he was cheating)won $8K. If poker were only as easy as in the movie...

-D.J.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

I realize it is just a movie. However I expected more with Johnny Chan as a consultant to the film. Mike Caro would have a field watching these guys play. On another note, it would be cool if the DVD had some extra stuff on poker or the 98 WSOP since Damon and Norton entered and all.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

Well, it's true. A Class IV Starcruiser could never achieve light speed in close proximity to a black hole. How could you possibly maintain the proper matter-antimatter blance within the gravitational wake? Is the ship supposed to have some kind of "quantum singularity nullifier"? Hah! A Class IV Starcruiser could never have something that technologically advanced.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

It's a movie, get over it. Either you liked it or you didn't.

FWIW, Teddy had Top 2 pair, Aces and Tens.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

What if I liked part of it, but not another part? Seriously, what is the harm of discussing it?

FWIW, it sure looks like he's tossing 10s on the table, which would have meant he flopped trips (flop was 6 7 10 rainbow) turn 2c, river Ace spades.

What I don't is that Teddy goes on and on about Mike flopping a draw. Since the flop was rainbow a draw could only have meant he put Mike on 45 or 58. Its hard to believe he narrowed Mike's holding down to those two hands but never considered that he could have held the 89.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

it depends. was it a Class IV-A, or a Class IV-B starcruiser? the Class IV-B had some great technological improvements to it. like the nexus warp modulator, the overcharge thrusters, cruise control, 6 disc changer, and extra cup holder.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

"Seriously, what is the harm of discussing it?"

No harm, but it doesn't belong on a poker site, it belongs on a movie site or something.

And Teddy's hand was Aces and Tens. Why don't you believe me?

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

prolly because the picture looks like he's tossing pocket 10's.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

"No harm, but it doesn't belong on a poker site,"

i find it a nice change of pace from the norm. also, since the movie involves alot of poker i think there's a place for some stuff on here. this isnt the first question regarding the movie. along with stuff about cincinatti kid...

"And Teddy's hand was Aces and Tens. Why don't you believe me?"

i cant remember the flop, whether it was rainbow or not...if it wasnt, then teddy would have a set, thinking mike may be drawing to his kicker, with maybe a gutshot draw...

and since teddy is tiliting, and doesnt think mike is as good much less better than himself. he may overbet this pot here. he also has the option to 'reload' at any time, and he thoroughly didnt expect to lose, given his reaction...he indicates that the A onthe last card couldnt have beat him alone, hence 2 pair is no good....the only thing that beats him is the str8. which mike has. and the A didnt help teddy's hand...what's the 2nd best hand on the flop that could only be beat again by AA on the river, which mike's play indicates he doesnt have from earlier rounds of betting? TT sounds good

it is kinda fun to analyze a movie hand....

fun thread...

b

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

Ok, I'll bite, how do you know it was Aces and Tens?

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

Did they? Did Norton and Damon played in the WSOP 98?

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

Nice point. I also liked the movie even though some things might be so obvious. I don't think the movie was making some lessons how you should poker. The movie was making a very big deal of "tells" and since many pro poker players don't see this as their valuest thing it sure wasn't a lesson movie. It was entertaining and I did enjoyed it. Btw some tells was just so low, which mediocre played would even have done that?

Re: Glad someone else noticed
 

Hehe I also want to play that easy game =) But life isn't always a fairytale =) But as long as I'm enjoying the game and win some I'm pleased.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

It's been a long time since I've seen the movie, but I thought you could make out the cards as Teddy is mucking them.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

No, you can't. As I said in my first post, I used Adobe Premiere to pull a specific frame from the movie with the cards shown and capture it. That's why I posted the picture because the only shot of the cards is as they are flying upwards after Teddy throws them on the table.

So much for certainty I guess.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

If you look at the image that you posted, you can see quite clearly that the left card is a black eight. The right card looks to me like it could be a black ten, it has four pips down the side, it might also be a nine, because the center pip or pips are not clear.

Good Luck,
Play Well,

Bob T.

Why would Teddy muck the winner?
 

"If you look at the image that you posted, you can see quite clearly that the left card is a black eight. The right card looks to me like it could be a black ten, it has four pips down the side, it might also be a nine, because the center pip or pips are not clear."

Im quite sure it is not a black eight and a nine =)

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

The bigger gaffes in the film come in non-poker scenes.

1) Worm actually has a game set up in the rich kid's house the same day he gets out of prison???

2) Where did they get the car they drove to the Taj?? Mike's girlfriend already split, I doubt she left him the Jeep.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

i believe the game was an ongoing game, that was running before worm went to prison. i think it was some sort of trust fund club.

i'm not sure, but i think there's places you can rent cars. i've never seen it done but i've heard stories of such places.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

They made it a point not to say what teddy has in the screen play. I've seen the movie about 100 times, and have strained my eyes trying to see what he holds, and cannot. Nor, is the freeze frame in the post clear. The point is, teddy is putting mike on a hand, and puts him on a wrong hand, cause mike manipulates him to. Meaning, mike severely outplays teddy, as teddy does in the opening scene.
This is a great film. To expect them to make this movie only for poker players, is silly. When I first saw the movie, I had played very little poker, and never Hold em. And it did a great job explaining the game, and what it takes to be a winning player. Plus, it is very well acted. The characters are well done. And it has an excellent plot. The movie is a lot more than just poker.
There is not one thing wrong with discussing this movie on this site either. It's in general hold em, and is a question about poker. And frankly, it's not just a movie, cause it is what got me into poker in the first place.

It doesn\'t matter what he had......................
 

he put Mike on a draw. You don't cards to bet in this spot. The only way he will get called on the end is if he is beat. This is standard big-bet strategy. KJB played it right to his read, until the river. You put a guy on a draw you have position over you bet when a blank hits the turn. If the river is a blank he will not call a bet, especially an all-in overbet. Therefore you should check the river to avoid the check-raise when being slowplayed against. Betting is just bad in this spot if you feel your opponant was drawing and missed.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

this is almost the exact same situation that chan/seidel were in, in the '88 world series that mikey was watching. i don't remember what seidel had, but perhaps it was a very similar hand to what teddy had.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

We can't really be sure what cards Teddy had. You can't tell for sure that the cards that flew across the table were his. Those cards look like T8, TT, or AT. Teddy says, "The Ace could not have helped you." He could say this for two reasons: 1 - He thinks Mike is on a draw therefore the Ace could not have helped him. 2 - Teddy has pocket Aces, giving him top set. There is one of three hands Teddy has, TT, AT, AA.

P.S. The flop was 6d 7s 10h, Turn was 2c, River was As

My question is, how did Mike turn his $10,000 into $60,000?
They both started with 10, Mike won that giving him 20. Then Teddy got more checks, I would assume that would have been $20,000. Did Teddy lose all that and get more checks again? Did he start with $40,000? They make it sound like he didn't. Just my thoughts.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

It's a movie. They could have given KGB any 2 cards in the deck to hold as props. If you can see his cards by slowing it down or whatever, it is still irrelevant. BTW, he's got Ace, Ten.

Re: TeddyKGB\'s last hand in Rounders
 

What makes more sense if you are trying to create a realistic scene: give KGB any two random cards to hold or give him the actual cards he's supposed to be holding?

BTW, how do you know he's got an Ace ten?

5-4, 5-3 or 4-3 .......................
 

When checked to on the end by an opponant you are sure is on a draw you should not bet. Betting the river in this spot will NOT make you money. If he is on the draw he will not call you. I don't care if KGB had top two or a set, he should not have bet $100 much less his whole stack. Therefore the only hands I can put KGB on to justify his play are 54, 53, or 43. If he has one of these holdings he will lose if he checks behind Damon. Remember he put him on a draw, probably a hand with an 8 or 9 in it. Since Mike MISSED he won't call a bet. Therefore by betting it all he wants Mike to fold. This is why it is important to put an opponant on a range of hands then narrow it down as the hand progresses. His locked first read cost him his whole stack.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

test

Re: It doesn\'t matter what he had......................
 

Broker,

You are correct only if Teddy really puts Mike on a draw. But suppose Teddy really puts Mike on a lower set or some such two pair hand and he wants to get paid off. He knows Mike is exhibiting amateurish tells, but in Teddy's mind he rates that Mike is holding a lower set. Teddy's mistake here, then, is not considering the possibbility that Mike is holding the nuts. But that does not make any of his plays wrong, only his reaction of incomprehensibility when he loses to a hand he might have suspected.

In this scenario, Teddy's talk of draws is meant to suck Mike in. He is taking Mike's tells and twisting them to his benefit, only he misreads Mike's hand. Now, you might argue that this is a ridiculous contrivance, but all of these moves are not beyond a player of Teddy's caliber.

Generally, though, I agree that the final hand is filled with problems. If Teddy believes Mike is on a draw, his bet makes no sense, unless he believes Mike's draw was to overcards including an ace.


Mike

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

thebroker, what were the amateur tells that Mike gave off during the movie?

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

I too wondered about how he got a game going the night he got out of the clink. I didn't think about the car though.

What about how he took Petrovsky's check for $10,000 to the checks cashed place and they gave him exactly $10,000? What, are they just operating out of charity?

Re: 5-4, 5-3 or 4-3 .......................
 

remember....they also implied that teddy was rattled from the 'oreo' incident. so he couldve been tilting a little here, which clouds his judgement...

a reason for betting the river? easy...so they dont see your hand. that is actually quite a benefit. if you bet on the river and rarely have to show, after awhile youre going to have more control over your opponent. soon he'll be wondering just what you are betting the rivers with and will call.

i do agree about overbetting the pot though. but again, teddy was supposed to be tilting a little...

b

Re: 5-4, 5-3 or 4-3 .......................
 

I put Teddy on AA before seing this thread. Perhaps as was suggested here he had a set of tens and was baiting Mike with the whole "you're on a draw?" thing when he (correctly) read Mike as very strong. That does seem quite plausable. His river bet would make sense with either of these 2 holdings. Ace-Ten doesn't seem as likely but could still be possible.

Re: 5-4, 5-3 or 4-3 .......................
 

If you guys really care what his intended hand was try posting the question on RGP. Either the screenwriter of the writer of Rounders posts there ocassionally and may be willing and able to clarify the holding. You might want to do a google search on RGP as well and find the thread to which I am referring. Ok I did the search for you here is his name and e-mail address:
Brian Koppelman, (co-writer of Rounders)
bkoppelman@aol.com)
and here is the thread at RGP:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...gambling.poker

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

Koppleman posted on RGP that Petrovsky told Mike (paraphrasing here, I don't have the exact quote handy) that, "...he knows someone who will cash the check for him, no questions asked..." but that scene was edited out due to time constraints.

Re: doesn\'t say in the screenplay......................
 

Ever watch the trailer on the DVD? They have blurbs of scenes that are cut out. For example, the guy Worm plays with in Prison is in some game with them in the city somewhere.. and he says something like "Notice how he wins EVERY SINGLE TIME HE DEALS?".. Also the argument between Mike and his girlfriend has different dialogue which is kind of funny. I wonder what this other "city game" was that they were supposed to play.. and if it meant getting rid of Worm's opening scene in jail. yes I have had way too much time on my hands [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]