Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I am playing a 5 handed online high stakes game because it looks about as good as it can look. I raise 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] from the CO and the button 3 bets. He has been three-betting me a lot but hasn't shown down too much cheese, so it's possible he's running well and possible he thinks he can run me over. I have played with him a decent amount and think that he plays very well postflop and that he is a winner in this game. I've played back at him a decent amount and gotten him to fold, or have shown the winner, so who knows if he is doing this super light or what. Anyway, the SB cold calls the 3 which could mean high suited stuff, maybe a suited ace and definitely a PP. He is averagely aggressive postflop. BB folds, I call.

We take a flop of 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, I check, button bets. We both call.

Turn is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Sb checks, I check, Button bets, Sb calls, I raise.

Comments?
-James

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I like it alot. Small blind looks to be drawing, and button now has to give serious consideration to the possibility you have a 9. I expect him to fold all overcards without draws and probably some pocket pairs that beat you even, which would be great for you. And if things go according to plan the money from your raise goes into a pot you're winning more than half the time. Oh, and if you're 3bet you fold comfortably.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

Me like! What's your plan when they call?

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I like this play, but are we hoping to get a free showdown out of curiousity? You represent a very strong hand, and you might force the button into just calling down with hands that beat yours, which would make a river bet incorrect.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I like the line, but I think check-raising the flop works better for me and my image. I really don't love the decisions you'd have to make if things didn't work so well with the turn card and turn action.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

Due to plays like these i've started doing a 3bet-free-showdown-play with AK. Since when these plays happen it's so so rare they have trips, so i'm against a bluff, semi-bluff or a marginal hand that can't call.

I like the play though.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

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Due to plays like these i've started doing a 3bet-free-showdown-play with AK. Since when these plays happen it's so so rare they have trips, so i'm against a bluff, semi-bluff or a marginal hand that can't call.

I like the play though.

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Which is why i'll call that turn 3 bet a lot more vs very tough players with hands I can't call a river bet with.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I would rather bet the turn than checkraise it.

Jeff

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

In my experience, when the board pairs like that, no one ever believes you have the paired card. I think you might force out something like AQ - but might the small blind have something like 88?

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I don't think anyone will fold an overpair here, and if the button gives up I don't think the sb will fold 77 or 88 now that the hand is headsup. If neither has a pair though you have a good shot of knocking out overcards and getting headsup against the draw. I guess we would have to do some math to figure out how likely that is.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

The only problem with this line, james...is I think he's more likely to call with his over cards than if you bet into him. The pot is now so much bigger and it's likely he can read your hand pretty well and will think his overs (if that's what he has) are good often enough so he'll call. If he's got you beat with a higher pair, you're just giving him more money and drawing very thin.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

Most of you are thinking wrong about this when you talk about folding overcards. The best thing about this raise is that it DOESN'T fold overcards, since they often think they have a draw in a big pot. I believe this is a valuebet. In addition checkraising 2 on the turn is a show of strength and will fold a 6 or 77, 88 a decent amount of the time.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I'd rather lead the turn and hope to get raised.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

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I don't think anyone will fold an overpair here, and if the button gives up I don't think the sb will fold 77 or 88 now that the hand is headsup. If neither has a pair though you have a good shot of knocking out overcards and getting headsup against the draw. I guess we would have to do some math to figure out how likely that is.

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I was certainly not hoping to knock out an overpair. Neither of these players would fold one here. If I can get them to fold anywhere between 6-12 outs then I am hugely victorious. If one calls with overcards I still make money but not as much as if he folds. The plan if both called was to bet any non-ace non-club river. The plan if just the sb called was to bet any non-ace non club river. The plan if just the button called was to bet any non-ace river. The plan if three-bet was to call it and reassess my position on the river.
-James

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

Great players will see through all of this crap and you'll NEVER get this fold (you'll probably get raised, too). I don't like it. Against mediocre players, maybe it's fine.

I prefer betting out the flop and hoping he raises. Then, just get to the showdown. If the other guy has a flush draw, and calls, bet the turn out again.

You'd sure hate the button to check behind here, and that's what he'll do unless you've got second best. Of course, maybe I'm giving the button too much credit.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

Muy bien, Senor Choppy. Me gusta, pero me gusta una apuesta en el flop el mas.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I actually prefer the turn checkraise to the turn lead. The lead is more transparent, and waiting to checkraise let's you make sure the blind isn't checkraising.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I would rather bet the flop and see what happens if you get raised by the button it will likely get the blind to fold his hand if he calls the two bets cold I think there is a good chance you are beat and can safely fold to any heat on the expensive streets. I would of liked to find out more info on the flop before the turn and the river with a bet or a check raise. I feel pocket 55's are just so vulnerable that I would like to find out info on the flop before I feel confident in taking it to the river.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

Haven't read other comments yet, but I think I prefer you playing into button on the turn (or flop for that matter). Button definitley is not believing that you have a 9, so I think there is no way he is folding anything here. IF we believe that to be true then this is a value bet to charge these guy more to see the river assuming we are ahead.

Pretty expensive for us if we are agaisnt an overpair. We are folding to a three bet right?

I guess I am not sure that this is better than leading the turn (or leading flop and turn since 9 more believable)......all comes down to the % of time we are ahead here since I do not think we are folding any better hands.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I guess I'm in the minority, I don't like the CR. A better hand isn't folding to this CR, overcards and anything up to a gutshot have the odds to draw (10.5:1 on a call)...but you will get a worse hand to fold...and *maybe* 88/77 but really depends on how look they are (SB calls 3 cold PF, he's showing these down...as is button). Although I don't play as high as you James, I would think "moves" like this with the context of this board will look like a representation of a 9 and be called down more often than not (with a hand) and certainly by a "running well" button who has likely relaxed his folding standards and increased his calling standards.

I think betting the turn is a better way to protect your hand and hope button folds or raises overcards to fold out SB with any 6 or 88/77 as he'll only be getting 4.75:1 on the call.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I'd vote for betting the flop instead, too. But once hero gets to the turn, I think a bet is clearly superior to check-raising.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

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I'd vote for betting the flop instead, too. But once hero gets to the turn, I think a bet is clearly superior to check-raising.

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Do you think he is more likely to fold overcards to a bet or a cr? Isn't a bet announcing my hand? Surely a good player is following through with any of his three betting hands here, right?
-James

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I am not sure that I love the turn checkraise. I think that this is a situation where, for metagame reasons, checkraising the turn occasionally is a good play, but I would prefer a lead most of the time, as checkraising gives both players better odds to draw, which is not what you want with a vulnerable holding. Additionally, it gives the button the chance to 3-bet the turn. Leading the turn gives the button the chance to raise and force the SB to call two big bets cold, which he seems unlikely to do. You said you were planning to call a 3-bet from the button and then reevaluate your position on the river, but if you lead the turn, call a raise (and hopefully that raise knocks out the SB), and then check-call the river, you will get to see a showdown for the same price (or 1 BB cheaper if you were planning on also calling a river bet after the turn 3-bet) with one less player in the hand, which I think is what you want here. However, given the line, I would fold to a turn 3-bet rather than calling, as I think that means you are up against an overpair.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I think a lot of players might wait til the river to raise an over pair but I dunno. At least often enough to make calling and re-evaluating the best play.

Re: My read and .02 (for what thats worth)
 

First off reads:
SB looks like a pocket pair below TT Could be 77 or 88 and be stomping you, or as you said could be big suited clubs at this point, his check call out of position twice pretty much narrows his hand down to one of these two holdings from what I can see.

Button, literally could have anything, big suited broadways, big ace, big pair, complete air, who knows, you wont have anymore infor on him unless you raise, and I have no problem with waiting until the turn to do it, it applies more pressure with one less card coming.

Now PF is wicked standard, but you already know that.

Flop can be taken a couple different ways.
Problem wit betting the flop is you can pretty much type in the box before you bet "I have a PP" so thats really not a good plan. If you checkraise the flop, you're inflating the pot to the point where overs will call on the turn anyway, and you're sure not chasing out a flush draw, muchless a PP.

As far as the texture of the board, the 9 helped your hand, its just back to the SB. I'm thinking more that he indeed does have a flush draw because he would have probably raised the turn if he had any wits about him and forced you to call two cold, so the turn info lets me put the SB on a flush draw with 75% certainty.

The button will follow through on the turn with a lot of things and a lot of which you beat, (and a few you dont) He could also be on a big FD and semibluffs the turn. Or hew coudl still be on ace high. I like the turn checkraise because he almost HAS to fold overs, the Sb will still call with a FD and (probably a PP) and if the button three bets, you can still be ahead, he'd probably wait to raise the OP on the river, and he will probably be a lot less likely to three bet there anyway.

So in short, if the button calls the c/r , I'd bet any non AK turn, and if the SB calls, I'd bet any non AK or club turn. Even te non ace or King or club river value bet would be extremely thin, but necessary to make.

Hope that made some kind of sense.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

I like the idea of betting to induce a raise from the button b/c a bet looks so weak. I'm not sure what overcards you'll lose with a check-raise considering how short the game is and how aggressive the button is, maybe everything but good aces. There's also the fact that I'm not going to like getting 3-bet, but I'm not sure that's the most important thing to consider.

I think a lot of it comes down to his 3-betting hand range, and how often he's going to have something like KJo here.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

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I think a lot of players might wait til the river to raise an over pair but I dunno. At least often enough to make calling and re-evaluating the best play.

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Even in this situation? The SB seems to be on a draw (either the flush or maybe overcards) but is already in for one bet on the turn, then hero check-raises you, do you really just call? I'd want to charge the SB for his draw and get some further information about what Hero is holding. And, precisely because so many good players in Hero's place would not fold to a 3-bet, I wouldn't be overly concerned about losing customers. With that flop and turn, pocket fives are going to want to see a showdown a lot of the time, and if the button 3-bets the turn, and then its checked to him on the river, I would expect him to bet the river too the vast majority of the time. And if that happens, the pot is too big for Hero to fold unless he is pretty damn certain of his read. So the way I look at it is that if you call a 3-bet, you are really also committing yourself to call a river bet. I don't think 55 is strong enough given the way the action has happened to commit yourself to call two more big bets (the turn 3-bet and the likely river bet). That's why I think its a fold if the turn gets 3-bet.

But, even if I am wrong, if Hero just leads the turn this whole sticky situation can be avoided, as I said before.

Re: Protect my pot, a high limit shorthanded hand
 

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I like the idea of betting to induce a raise from the button b/c a bet looks so weak. I'm not sure what overcards you'll lose with a check-raise considering how short the game is and how aggressive the button is, maybe everything but good aces. There's also the fact that I'm not going to like getting 3-bet, but I'm not sure that's the most important thing to consider.

I think a lot of it comes down to his 3-betting hand range, and how often he's going to have something like KJo here.

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In this game, his having KJo is a distinct possibility.
-James