I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB


Button is around 12% VPIP and 9% PFR...
would you take another line?

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Lead the flop, some of the people in the middle will call, hopefully the PFR will raise. Then you get to 3-bet. I think 3-betting is good there, at least one person should call 2 cold, which makes it about EV neutral, if more than one does, which is very very possible, you're making money. If not, maybe it'll clean up some pair outs (if you're not up against an overpair).

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

I think you played the flop the worst possible way. You need to either bet to pump this pot with your flush draw or check/raise the pre-flop raiser when he bets in LP to face the field with 2 bets protecting your overcard outs. I lean towards the check/raise route since the pot is already pretty big. There is also a slight chance that you will take down the pot UI on the turn with this play.

Comments?

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

bet/ 3-bet the flop.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Lead out the flop....

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Played to passivly. This pot should have been bigger.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

you probably lost some bets too on the river, if you play passively flop/turn than bet when the flush hit... it makes it obvious that you got it and mid pair will 100% fold and not do a crying call...

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
you probably lost some bets too on the river, if you play passively flop/turn than bet when the flush hit... it makes it obvious that you got it and mid pair will 100% fold and not do a crying call...

[/ QUOTE ]

This goes both ways, I could see this river easily checking through the way the action panned out throughout the hand. I like betting here just to be on the safe side. If these players have middle pair or even top pair, there is a good possibility that they would call 1 bet, but check if given the opportunity.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Fold preflop?
Bet out the flop, check-call the turn unless you think you can win the pot right there with a bet. Bet the river.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop?


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nah, small suited broadways rule to limp in with UTG

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop?

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I like folding the least of the 3 options.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Preflop and river are fine.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop and river are fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, what do you think is the best plan for the flop?

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Checkraise.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Yep.

Thought of check-raising the flop, but then noticed who was the PFR raiser and was quite sure I was against an overpair.

If I would've noticed that earlier, I would have just bet the flop...

And so the hand went.. blaah.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

I don't mind the limp preflop. It's one of the few times I'd do it - although I'm sure there are many who disagree.

I'd lead at the flop here. Normally with a pre-flop raiser, you can easily check raise, but given his position, if it is checked to him and you check raise, you could lose everyone else.

I think the turn ans river are fine.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

C/R THE FLOP! MAXIMIZE THE POT W/4 SUIT ON FLOP AND A COUPLE OVERS.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Normally with a pre-flop raiser, you can easily check raise, but given his position, if it is checked to him and you check raise, you could lose everyone else.


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you don't think the pot is big enough where we should protect our Q and J outs?

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Slight hijack/easy question (I hope): If you can limp with QJs from EP, does that mean you should limp preflop with any suited broadway from any position?

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

With a poster, I'm raising preflop, bet/raising the flop, and my turn and river play will depend on the action and the board.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Slight hijack/easy question (I hope): If you can limp with QJs from EP, does that mean you should limp preflop with any suited broadway from any position?

[/ QUOTE ]

IT DEPENDS ON THE GAME MY FRIEND; I WOULD SAY THE LATER THE POSITION, DEPENDING ON OPPONENTS(I PLAY ALMOST ALL LIVE SO IT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE NET) BUT LATER POSITION WITH WEAK OPPONENTS I MAY RAISE JUST TO CHANGE SPEEDS OR IF I FEEL I AM LEGITIMATELY AHEAD. THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN POKER, HOWEVER. SHOULD YOU LIMP EVERY TIME WITH ANY SUITED BROADWAY? DEPENDS ON THE GAME, BUT VARIANCE TO A REASONABLE DEGREE, WILL HELP.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slight hijack/easy question (I hope): If you can limp with QJs from EP, does that mean you should limp preflop with any suited broadway from any position?

[/ QUOTE ]

IT DEPENDS ON THE GAME MY FRIEND; I WOULD SAY THE LATER THE POSITION, DEPENDING ON OPPONENTS(I PLAY ALMOST ALL LIVE SO IT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE NET) BUT LATER POSITION WITH WEAK OPPONENTS I MAY RAISE JUST TO CHANGE SPEEDS OR IF I FEEL I AM LEGITIMATELY AHEAD. THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN POKER, HOWEVER. SHOULD YOU LIMP EVERY TIME WITH ANY SUITED BROADWAY? DEPENDS ON THE GAME, BUT VARIANCE TO A REASONABLE DEGREE, WILL HELP.

[/ QUOTE ]


WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING AT ME????????!!!!!!!!!111111?!!?!

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

i definately would have check/raised this flop

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

Bet the flop.

nh.

-d

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

no, but u shoudln't be folding them (generally speaking)

raising is awesome stuff

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

atually wait, i take what i said back, check raising the flop would most likely knock out those other callers in between you and the button. I probablyt would have lead out and maybe got some callers button most likely would have raised raised and you might be able to 3-bet here.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop, some of the people in the middle will call, hopefully the PFR will raise. Then you get to 3-bet. I think 3-betting is good there, at least one person should call 2 cold, which makes it about EV neutral, if more than one does, which is very very possible, you're making money. If not, maybe it'll clean up some pair outs (if you're not up against an overpair).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop,...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.


[ QUOTE ]
...some of the people in the middle will call, hopefully the PFR will raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, I hate any plan where the reasoning includes the word "hopefully."

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

I run the ole' stop and go here. I think it's the best way to trap a lot of bets and confuse the [censored] out of people. Lead the flop, get some calls in the middle, and hopefully a raise by the original raiser. Call the raise, as will the rest of the field. I lead the turn as long as it's not an ace or king, hope to trap a few more drawing overs bets. 2-4 on Party you are GUARANTEED to get value from these people calling another bet. If there's a raise from the original raiser, I just call again. Bet out the river heart and you'll probably still get a few calls. This might be flawed logic, but from what I observe in Party 2-4, this is the most efficient way to draw maximum value from call stations.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

So was it just the word choice or the thinking that's a problem? I could have said "probably" or "often". I suppose the times he doesn't raise he has something like AK, in which case he may sometimes check it through against a large field (player dependent I guess), which is really bad for us. So when he doesn't raise, usually we're still happy with our plan because there's a decent chance it gets checked through. When he raises, he usually has an overpair, but we're getting more value by trapping everyone with our flush draw.

So the point is, 2+2 is more fun than studying.

For those that say bet out the flop...
 

i am not saying you are wrong, but can someone please give me a reason why betting the flop is superior than check/raising the flop?

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

if there was a book on betting flush draws for value, this hand and this flop would be on the cover

Re: For those that say bet out the flop...
 

Betting obviously pumps the pot for our draw. You know this, and your question is basically whether we should protect/clean-up outs or pump the draw.

If the raiser has on overpair, he will of course oblige us and bet when checked to. If he does have an overpair, however, there's little point in cleaning up our outs since spiking a Q/J won't win us the pot (well, if he has TT/JJ then it can, but you get my point, most of his overpairs will have those cards crushed). If he doesn't, then cleaning outs is all well and good. However, I don't know how often he'll bet just overs into 4 other opponents. The flop is raggedy, though, so I'm re-evaluating this idea a bit.

I don't know if there's any sort of math we can do to determine when protection and when pumping is more profitable, but I still am afraid check-raising will be more apt to be "protecting" when we are behind an overpair and thus put ourselves in a worse situation.

Re: For those that say bet out the flop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am not saying you are wrong, but can someone please give me a reason why betting the flop is superior than check/raising the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reason: Your position relative to the pre-flop raiser.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slight hijack/easy question (I hope): If you can limp with QJs from EP, does that mean you should limp preflop with any suited broadway from any position?

[/ QUOTE ]

IT DEPENDS ON THE GAME MY FRIEND; I WOULD SAY THE LATER THE POSITION, DEPENDING ON OPPONENTS(I PLAY ALMOST ALL LIVE SO IT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE NET) BUT LATER POSITION WITH WEAK OPPONENTS I MAY RAISE JUST TO CHANGE SPEEDS OR IF I FEEL I AM LEGITIMATELY AHEAD. THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN POKER, HOWEVER. SHOULD YOU LIMP EVERY TIME WITH ANY SUITED BROADWAY? DEPENDS ON THE GAME, BUT VARIANCE TO A REASONABLE DEGREE, WILL HELP.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/505907/caps.jpg

Re: For those that say bet out the flop...
 

The only reason I can come up with is that you probably lose customers being to the left of the bettor. An overcall here keeps him pumping up the pot while a raise will help to isolate him... assuming MP3 and CO want to drop.

I still feel like the cr is the right line here. Raising drops you at worst one small bet but potentially earns you another 3... possibly more if button feels like reraising. Makes it easier to check/call the turn and pump the river when your flush comes in.

Re: For those that say bet out the flop...
 

[ QUOTE ]
and your question is basically whether we should protect/clean-up outs or pump the draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

Also, if the pre-flop raiser has just overcards, we can take this pot down unimproved on the turn. The downside of this hope is that we need a parlay of several things to happen for this to occur.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I run the ole' stop and go here. I think it's the best way to trap a lot of bets and confuse the [censored] out of people. Lead the flop, get some calls in the middle, and hopefully a raise by the original raiser. Call the raise, as will the rest of the field. I lead the turn as long as it's not an ace or king, hope to trap a few more drawing overs bets. 2-4 on Party you are GUARANTEED to get value from these people calling another bet. If there's a raise from the original raiser, I just call again. Bet out the river heart and you'll probably still get a few calls. This might be flawed logic, but from what I observe in Party 2-4, this is the most efficient way to draw maximum value from call stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that leading the turn would be wrong here.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

I there any merit to betting out on the flop, but merely calling a raise? I don't like the idea of being forced to lead the turn when I whiff on the flush draw, especially if I don't get it heads up. I could end up paying too much on the turn if rasied again. Also, I don't want to check the turn beacuae that would advertise my hand. If I merely the call the raise on the flop, though, it will merely look like I'm cowering to an overpair and not necessarily drawing to hearts.

I'm thinking out loud here, or should I say being honest about how I'd play the hand. Please tell me the ways that I am wrong.

Re: I don\'t wanna raise... QJs UTG
 

[ QUOTE ]
I run the ole' stop and go here. I think it's the best way to trap a lot of bets and confuse the [censored] out of people. Lead the flop, get some calls in the middle, and hopefully a raise by the original raiser. Call the raise, as will the rest of the field. I lead the turn as long as it's not an ace or king, hope to trap a few more drawing overs bets. 2-4 on Party you are GUARANTEED to get value from these people calling another bet. If there's a raise from the original raiser, I just call again. Bet out the river heart and you'll probably still get a few calls. This might be flawed logic, but from what I observe in Party 2-4, this is the most efficient way to draw maximum value from call stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like everything except for leading the turn. Check/call turn. Lead out on the river.