Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

BB ($20.43)
Hero ($115.6)
MP ($60.2)
CO ($20.65)
Button ($48.4)
SB ($403.15)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $2.50, Hero calls $2.50.

I have few reads on this table. Big stack is sitting there not playing a single hand, so I'm guessing he gets his money in with monsters vs monsters/idiots? MP just seems to be a regular, fairly predictable 6-max player (the betting pattern should narrow the range down for most 6max games especially at night.)

Flop: ($9.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $6</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, MP calls $6.

I have gone back to minraising as it has been very effective when interest in the hand seems to be average or uncertain (flop/river push if I can tell they're HIGHLY interested or I see no other way of getting the most money in). Fully confident at this point.

Turn: ($33.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10.99</font>, MP calls $10.99.

From his flop CALL of my min-raise tells me that he does not have an overpair and leaves me w/ AK as his hand, hoping to catch just that on the turn. When the turn is such a blank for the hand I put him on and such a strong card for me I thought about checking--bad thought altogther right? Tossed that aside and bet a weird amount to HOPEFULLY get that call from AK (I'm hoping the bet looks so weird to him that he does not respect it--thinks the river is on sale for a lowlow price).

River: ($55.23) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $34.21 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $34.21.

UHOH?? Ok the river is a counterfeitting card. My wired pair is now useless and I'm playing the smallest house out there! I was about to bet when I figured I had no idea what to bet. If I pushed I would definitely not get called by anything BUT a better house right? I didn't think AK would CALL, that would be way too fishy and I didnt see this guy as that dumb. A small value bet was a choice, but I remembered his flop call of my minraise and was sure he had AK, so I checked hoping to induce a bluff.

OK, when he actually DID push on the river (quite quickly after my check I might add ) I second-guessed myself. But this board was still very safe in the sense that the high card was a 7. I reasoned that ONLY a wired pair would be winnning this pot (no A7s in my mind). Stuck to my guns and called his push.

The questions are:
Was inducing at this point a mistake?
Would a value bet keep better control over this one?
Am I pot committed and this river/is this an easy call on river?
Is it plainly obvious he has AK?
When the board counterfeits like that am I the only one who gets pissed?
Is this river actually good for my hand considering how the hand progressed???

Please feel free to comment/flame, TY in advance


Final Pot: $123.65

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Your money should be in far before the river.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Wow.

Fold pre-flop. Flop is.. well.. it's Ok, but I'm not crazy about it. Push the turn. Fold the river.

What range of hands are you putting villian on? Good lord...

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

The flop is wretched.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Please reread edited version.
There is no way I fold pre-flop to his bet!
What about the flop is "Ok", the actual flop or my minraise?

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Reread original post to see how I thought this one out.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Why would I want to lose this guy?

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Where did I mention doing anything to lose him.

Min check raising the flop should set of warning bells to this guy, especially if that is your standard line.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Am I the only one who sees my play here as almost standard up to the river? It seems like people force too much action sometimes w/ sets. I do actually PUSH or reraise a SUBSTANCIAL amount on the flop w/ a set, but that is ONLY if I think there is SUBSTANCIAL interest by the villain, ie AA-QQ. If not I try to figure out just HOW MUCH interest the villain has in this board and I try to extract the most based on that interest.

No one else does this? Is it just "flop a set and reraise the HELL out of every flop?????"

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reread original post to see how I thought this one out.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I couldn't narrow villian down to AK, no way what so ever, uh-uh, nope. Did I mention that there's no way I could? In fact I'd place him on mid pocket pair 99-JJ. The call on the river indicated nothing to me. In fact, I'd play it the same if I had a mid-pocket pair 6 handed, hoping to bring you a long. The turn call indicates he's got something, as the board pairs and he's still right there. Unless you place him as being complete idiot fish, I take his push on the river seriously and drop this hand. Inducing a bluff? I have no idea what you're talking about. Your best bet here was to lead considering you were probably beat. I think trying to induce something now puts you in the situation where you don't know what the hell villian has. If you were going to do anything, you should have lead the river. A bad hand all the way around imo.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

I haven't played w/ this guy before and this is DEFINITELY not my standard line. Im sure those warning bells were sounded, but do you see a better raise than a min here that wouldn't lose him? (I'd rather keep him here and tug the line than just yank it and hope the hook doesn't rip through his gills).

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

So you think I'm BEHIND on this turn???????

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Alot depends on his aggression or calling preferences.

Oversimplyfying things, if he makes strong continuation bets check call the flop, check raise the turn.

If he likes to raise your bets bet out 2/3 the pot on the flop.

If he can't get away from hands I might check raise the flop to mix things up since he will be locked in since the pot will be bloated by the turn once he calls and it will be very hard for him to get away.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you think I'm BEHIND on this turn???????

[/ QUOTE ]

No, where did I say that? I think you're in front. Let me break this down for you again. Even with all your comments, you have a decent raise pre-flop and a call (even if it's from the BB). I fold at this point, unless the table was calling and playing a lot of crap hands with raises. Second pushing or not pushing sets comes with experience, the texture of the flop, players involved in the hand, your relative and fixed position. After the board pairs I push this turn. Why? It's a decent size pot, I may get called, AND if the river pairs another card, I may have now lost this decent size pot. You had an even worse situation occur and the board tripped. Like I said, unless you place villian as an idiot fish, I'd respect this push.

What did villian hold?

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Villain's QUICK call of my flop min-raise told me he had NOTHING solid at all.
Villain's VERY LONG call of the turn told me he didn't think he had a shot, but thought "What the hell is this guy doing betting this amount? I'm gonna call this guy with my hand that STILL is not solid."

He had AQ

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

I was certain you were behind on the river.

Obviously as you took it down, what can I say?

So villain was playing AQ that way. Would he have played TT or JJ differently? Heck, would he have played A7o differently (since he played that hand like a moron)?

If you are that certain of your hand reading capabilities, then fine. But you are putting yourself in a reeeeeally tight spot when you try to induce a bluff with that river card. OK, if you said to yourself: "I know what villain has, I check, I call any bet he makes", then perhaps thats another story. But how can you call any bet he makes with that river card? Even if he is a complete chump, the more reason for you to fold, since he would have boated up.

All in all: Good for you if you like pain and difficult decisions, but personally I like to keep things simple for my self.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

..you serious?

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

I'm finding this thread interesting. Just a few comments to add for people to think about and comment on if they agree or disagree:

I'm wondering how OP could eliminate mid pp's (or even high pp's based on flop play) from the vilian's range of hands. Isn't it within the range of choices for many players to raise preflop, bet this flop, and then just call a mini raise on the flop thinking THEY are ahead? The vilian is the preflop raiser. I forget if you said you had a strong read on him. Would the vilian have a read on you in this hand? Does he read anything into this mini raise? such as strength, you hitting top pair (you limp called preflop and lots of players do this with all sorts of hands, especially six max)?

I realize the flop looked real nice to you but given your read of AK what about diamonds? What would you have done if a diamond fell on the turn instead of the board pairing? I realize this isn't a high probability scenario (six max, heads up, flushes coming up less often) but would you have been trapped by a flush with your set not improving and under what circumstances? (vilian checking turn, check rasing, betting out small or pot, etc)

If you were the bb and held tens, would you call your flop mini raise, always reraise? What about check calling an overpair on the turn?

I don't always play sets srong. But the lower the set and the more coordinated the board is the riskier it is to just juice the pot. This is particularly true for me because I get caught up and call later in the hand when I am behind if I'm not on my A game.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

OP= out of position or opponent??

The key here for me is that this is a 6MAX game. If the villain held a pocketpair and was minraised on the flop, he would DEFINITELY reassess where he stood ON THE FLOP. At the very least I would see some sort of aggression BEFORE THE RIVER. A REminraise on the flop for information seems like the most probable choice a villain would go by. Or maybe a stop-and-go on the turn. In 6-max, if someone bets and is minraised, and they QUICKLY call what alarm bells does that sound off for YOU?

When I see this done, I sometimes get very aggressive w/ TPGK for ALL THE MONEY. That's why I use the flop on 6max and weird betting patterns to figure out where I stand at this moment.

However, when I DO do this, I am extremely weary of what turns. Completed straights, flushes, a change in their aggression, a chance to bluff? This does not only apply to 6max as well. Playing a full Party 50NL table yesterday I had QQ late reraised a MINRAISER from early position to $3. The flop came J82 (two diamonds) and the villain checked and called my OVERBET QUICKLY! THIS IS IMPORTANT!!! Ok now this is interesting as this player is a fish. HMM what could he have, I ruled out AJ from the flop because this fish was aggressive and would have reraised. The turn came an ACE and this time he lead out for 5, I MINraised to 10, and he massaged it to 17 QUICKLY... If he does NOT have AJ and is reraising this board NOW what's going on? He could have AK at this point but again he reaised QUICKLY!

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]I have been wanting to emphasize how timing in betting is VERY IMPORTANT IN READING HANDS ONLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

So at this point I still put him to a hand that DID NOT IMPROVE ON THE TURN. He is betting too fast and isnt thinking. I ended up RERAISING to ALMOST the rest of my chips (I left myself $2 so he would have to call the river also done for image purposes) and he now STOPPED AND THOUGHT for a long time. He ended up CALLING my turn bet and a flush came on the river and he took it down w/ a small flush draw!!!

So TIMING is what I based my decisions on, and I know I can't show how long each player took to make a decision from the bison converter but I'm trying to relay just how important timing is.

BTW I use this against others. If an opponenet has a hand and I KNOW he's highly interested, I sometimes do a "stopandgo" w/ lightning speed especially if im OOP it works even better. ie: villain overbets the pot 2x on flop I TAKE A WHILE and think about it taking the clock to 16s left and CALL w/ a very strong hand. On the turn after he bets, I get mouse ready to slide the bettor to allin as FAST AS POSSIBLE to throw him off. Because RIGHT AFTER he makes his turn bet he still thinks he's ahead and if you get that bet in quickly enought he won't stop to think about what I may REALLY have other than a bluff.

Thanks for your replies........

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

I definitely do not like tough decisions but they come up all the time in poker. The river fell the way it did. What would you do at this point? Check-fold? Check-call a SMALL bet? PUSH? Cuss at Party for "ruining" your great hand? I hated that river too you know? It wasn't an easy call, but I didn't think the villain's hand changed at any point. OF COURSE HE COULD HAVE HAD AA-33, but did it LOOK like he did? If he did then he hid it VERY VERY WELL right????? I don't want you to think I like being in this spot, but the pot had ~$55 in it and it was costing me ~$30 to call. The question of him having it and bluffing was helping me call this pot. If he bet $200 into a $55 pot then I don't think I can make this call unless I KNOW this guy, but his betting pattern should have shown enough that he held AK right?

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Yeah there's now way I fold 22 to that raise!

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

So to "keep it simple" this means you would push on the turn?? Either that or you would "simply" fold easily???

BTW:
Ahighcard is drawing dead
A7 has the (2) 4s as outs = 2outs on the turn
PP has (2) 4s + (2) of the same rank as outs = 4outs on turn

Do you still want to "simply" go allin on the turn??? Doesn't a plan to induce a bluff seem like the way to get money at this point??????? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I'd much rather give him "odds" to at most four outs on the turn than to push on the turn. If I'm already behind then he flopped topset/turned quads, lol isn't THIS simple?

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Your range of hands, which basically includes busted overcards and complete junk is far too narrow.

He said he has a big hand from the start. He wants to play it for a big pot.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Weird, I just posted a very similar hand. I'll post my decision there after I get a few responses.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your range of hands, which basically includes busted overcards and complete junk is far too narrow.

He said he has a big hand from the start. He wants to play it for a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? A big hand on a 6max can include two broadway cards. The way he bet this one out on the flop can look like AK. He CALLED my minraise on flop?! Overpair reraises here most of the time and does not slowplay. Him taking a long time to just CALL my turn bet of only 1/3 the pot is the OPPOSITE of showing that he wants to play for a big pot, otherwise he would have reraised that bet. I don't see a single point in this hand that shows he wants to play for a big pot. His allin on the river doesnt even show that.

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

Bump

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So to "keep it simple" this means you would push on the turn??

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have to go all-in on the turn, I have no recollection on the stack deepness of villain and you.
But I wouldn't be betting a mere third of the pot either.

[ QUOTE ]
Either that or you would "simply" fold easily???

[/ QUOTE ]
Well basically yes. Since, as you so correctly put it in another thread, all my opponents are professionals, once I boat up, I usually fold, unless I don't flop the boat. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Look, I really don't have much more to say to you, since you obviously don't get my point. I am not saying that my way is the correct way, I'm just giving you my view of this hand.

Once again:

A. If you are "sure" that villain has AK/AQ/AJ, and that he is capable of bluffing away his remaining stack on the river, go ahead. Check with the intention to call the all-in you are begging to get.

B. If you are not "sure" that villain has AK/AQ/AJ, and since all other legitimate holdings have you beat, either you check with the intention to fold or check with the intention to call a small bet. But I personally would probably bet out on the river, less than half the pot, and fold to a raise.

Thing is this: I can't see how you can pick A, because you have to put villain on such a narrow holding. You basically played this hand like you had top pair, or two pair, since villain was in it all the way one can expect villain to have at least a pair, or an overpair to the flop, or a middle pair to the flop, more often than that he is holding AQ and is hoping to catch something. At least I would do that.

So, if you would have called his all-in and he would turn up an A7o, would you still have posted this hand?

Re: Tricky River; Good Bluff Inducer?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, if you would have called his all-in and he would turn up an A7o, would you still have posted this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he raised 6X PF w/ A7o and played the hand the way he did, I put a note on him saying Ax for big raise PF, add him to my buddy list and follow him around as I would be DUMBFOUNDED!

On the river after he went allin and I was making my decision to call or fold, I told myself, "I'm definitely posting this hand......." A7o however would be a waste of time and a whining post about how someone played junk cards and beat me. I post hands (VERY few at that) when the hand is interesting to me and possibly other readers of the forum. If I got extremely outplayed, but the hand was interesting enough as to warrant question/posts, I would post them. Do you think I'm posting this to "showoff" that I made a call that won a single pot? I EXPLAINED my predicament at each street and asked for input, what others do in this situation, is it -EV in the long run, am I right in putting him on a bluff, advocating to watch betting patterns, etc.... So you would not have called on the river and you're berating me for it, that's your opinion but I hope you can see the point of the post and will be open to different ways of playing hands even though that's not the way YOU always play it. Thanks for your input though, I still appreciate it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]