How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I've been playing online for 3 years or so, played 1-2 for about a year, moved up to 3-6, did very well there, played 5-10 for most of the time and did well, built up about a 40k bankroll and gave 15-30 a shot last year, where I made 5k and then went on a 7k losing streak, then I quit and went back down to 5/10 6max, where I've been ever since. I now have 60k in the bank, but I'm still scared about dealing with the swings in the 10/20 6max. My bb/100 is probably only like 1.5 or so, I haven't kept track in awhile because pokertracker is so labor intensive, but most of my experience in the 5/10 6max has been pretty frustrating, even though I've made a very decent amount of money over the long haul. Am I a total wuss for not giving 10-20 6max a shot, despite the large bankroll?? I just get so caught up in the variance sometimes, I think I'm starting to deal with it much better lately, but it still bothers me. It doesn't adversely affect my play, just my level of happiness. Anyone here as risk averse as I am?? I need some encouragement. If I'm only beating the 5/10 by maybe 2 bb/100 at the most, I'm going to go through hell at 10-20 aren't I? I'll grow as a player, and I can certainly withstand the losses financially, but I'll be totally depressed. Then again, maybe I'll rock it, so is the reward worth the risk? Help!

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

You've (a) been playing successfully online for 3 years; (b) "took a shot" at 15/30 (with an big BR) and only had a net loss of $2,000; (c) have a current BR of 2,000 BB for 15/30; and (d) are vascilating as to whether you should continue to play at 5/10 6 max?

Move up to 15/30. Sheesh.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I have to disagree with the first responder. I have conflicting feelings. If your mind is telling you you are not ready than perhaps you are not.

Are you playing poker primarily for enjoyment?

On the other hand, the swings get easier as you get used to them.

I guarantee you Roy Cooke was playing lower games than he was bankrolled for an was way more skilled than many players at higher levels but he just felt more comfortable at lower games.

Also, I am a bit confused by your BB/100 as to whether or not that is in the 5/10 game but frankly (if it is your 5-10 wr) that is not a huge win rate that would clearly point you to moving up.

Just my two cents.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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I haven't kept track in awhile because pokertracker is so labor intensive

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I stopped reading here.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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Are you playing poker primarily for enjoyment?


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I have a job but the majority of my income is definitely poker. I do love the game, even when I'm not running particularly well. I hate the game when I'm losing badly, which aside from this week, has been fairly often lately.



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Also, I am a bit confused by your BB/100 as to whether or not that is in the 5/10 game but frankly (if it is your 5-10 wr) that is not a huge win rate that would clearly point you to moving up.


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Yeah that bb/100 is just my estimation for 5/10 6max, maybe over 50-60k hands or so. I agree, it's not indicative of an immediate move up to 10/20. I know I still have some minor leaks but I'm still fairly certain I'm capable of beating 10/20 6max, but there's the issue that if I start losing, do I just give up and move back down again? That would be an enormous waste of time and opportunity.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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I haven't kept track in awhile because pokertracker is so labor intensive

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I stopped reading here.

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Give me a break. So basically what you're saying is that I'm not capable of improving my game, bla bla because I haven't looked at pokertracker in awhile, and thus I shouldn't move up?

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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I haven't kept track in awhile because pokertracker is so labor intensive

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I stopped reading here.

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I think he doesn't play at any of the skins that automatically go into PT. So he has to copy and paste every 100 hands, which is a pain.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

i have no idea why, but i had a dream about you last night. you were 2 to my right at gamesgrid in a $1/2 N/L game. you had me in a bad way with set over set, but i hit my one outer for quads on the turn, when we both got all our money in. maybe this post should go in the phsych forumn? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

cheers!

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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but I'll be totally depressed

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With a 1.5 winrate why risk it. Just be happy, more important. I am in the same postion and feel the same way, winrate is higher and I am sticking at 5/10.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

My honest opinion after thinking some more (and I don't say this for any reason other than to answer the question you posed) is that you probably should continue to improve your game before moving up. My thoughts:

1. The win rate is very good but not great in very soft games, seems like your postflop play could use some improvement.

2. The tone of your post indicates you are pretty risk averse (I am as well). Given how swingy the 10-20 six max will be I would say work on your game and then move up.

My personal opinion, and don't mean to be controversial is many posters move up too quickly rather than too slowly. FWIW I am solidly over 2bb/100 at my current level and feel I have a lot of improving to do before moving up to the next level. I also want to get 100k-150k hands under my belt to build the bankroll and build my skills.

Just my two cents.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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i have no idea why, but i had a dream about you last night. you were 2 to my right at gamesgrid in a $1/2 N/L game. you had me in a bad way with set over set, but i hit my one outer for quads on the turn, when we both got all our money in. maybe this post should go in the phsych forumn? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

cheers!

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Are you serious? No offense, but I don't recall your screen name, have we played before?


Anyway...yeah I play at eurobet, it's a pain in the ass to upload hand histories. I just stopped doing it. Anyone know of an efficient and quick way to do it?

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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My honest opinion after thinking some more (and I don't say this for any reason other than to answer the question you posed) is that you probably should continue to improve your game before moving up. My thoughts:

1. The win rate is very good but not great in very soft games, seems like your postflop play could use some improvement.

2. The tone of your post indicates you are pretty risk averse (I am as well). Given how swingy the 10-20 six max will be I would say work on your game and then move up.

My personal opinion, and don't mean to be controversial is many posters move up too quickly rather than too slowly. FWIW I am solidly over 2bb/100 at my current level and feel I have a lot of improving to do before moving up to the next level. I also want to get 100k-150k hands under my belt to build the bankroll and build my skills.

Just my two cents.

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Great post. I agree, people like us are definitely in the minority, most winning poker players move up too quickly than too slowly.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

as for your post, i think your hesitation has everything to do with the swings in a 6-max game. i had the same type of win rate as you in the $5/10 6-max, and also made a lot of money there. i gave it up, though, because i was really on a rollercoaster emotionally as far as always questioning my game.

i moved to $5/10 full for a bit, but it was an absolute rock garden. then, i moved down to $3/6 full, had a very easy time there. it got kinda boring for me, and i had been playing a lot of live pot limit and no limit with very good success, so i moved all my play online to that as well. the rake back is not nearly as good, but swings are almost non-existent, and my income there is actually quite a bit better than any limits i've played.

i may one day move back to limit poker, but right now, i'm having lots of fun and winning lots of money in the world of N/L-P/L.

my advice is simply to get away from 6-max games for a bit, and see if that doesn't give you more confidence in your play and reduce stress in your life.

cheers!

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

if your at eurobet, they load up the same was as party. Which is super easy, just click the upload and it does it all by itself. There should be no reason you aren't using PT then.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I don't see a major push to move up. I'm playing mostly $5/$10 with some $10/20 and $15/30, but I don't mind grinding away at Games Grid playing some $2/$4 and $3/$6.

If you need the money or have major goals, then perhaps there is a reason to try and move up quickly, but in my case, I'm comfortable and have a BR way over what I need. On the other hand, I have no stress - I play when I want, and I get to travel a bit, go to concerts etc. and don't worry too much about when, or even "if", I'll ever get to $20/$40 or higher on a full-time basis. Who cares?

Play poker to enjoy it. If the higher limits are intimidating or ruin your enjoyment of the game, don't move up.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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I haven't kept track in awhile because pokertracker is so labor intensive

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I stopped reading here.

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I'd give the guy some advice, but reading his post is so labour intensive. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

You won't try 10/20 6max with a 60K roll? Yes, you are a total wuss. And when I'm saying this, you KNOW you need to reexamine things

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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I've been playing online for 3 years or so, played 1-2 for about a year, moved up to 3-6, did very well there, played 5-10 for most of the time and did well, built up about a 40k bankroll and gave 15-30 a shot last year, where I made 5k and then went on a 7k losing streak, then I quit and went back down to 5/10 6max, where I've been ever since. I now have 60k in the bank, but I'm still scared about dealing with the swings in the 10/20 6max. My bb/100 is probably only like 1.5 or so, I haven't kept track in awhile because pokertracker is so labor intensive, but most of my experience in the 5/10 6max has been pretty frustrating, even though I've made a very decent amount of money over the long haul. Am I a total wuss for not giving 10-20 6max a shot, despite the large bankroll?? I just get so caught up in the variance sometimes, I think I'm starting to deal with it much better lately, but it still bothers me. It doesn't adversely affect my play, just my level of happiness. Anyone here as risk averse as I am?? I need some encouragement. If I'm only beating the 5/10 by maybe 2 bb/100 at the most, I'm going to go through hell at 10-20 aren't I? I'll grow as a player, and I can certainly withstand the losses financially, but I'll be totally depressed. Then again, maybe I'll rock it, so is the reward worth the risk? Help!

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You say you are scared. What are you scared of? If you take ten percent of your roll and take a shot at 10/20 you will still have enough to buy a BMW left over if you don't make it. Is it failure? The only way to fail is not to try. Or to give up.

Why don't you take a couple of hundred big bets and dedicate that to 10/20 and spend the first half of your sessions at 10/20 and the second half at 5/10? That way you will be grinding out your profit at 5/10 even if your shot at 10/20 doesn't work out?

Whatever you decide good luck and good playing.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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Anyway...yeah I play at eurobet, it's a pain in the ass to upload hand histories. I just stopped doing it. Anyone know of an efficient and quick way to do it?

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How exactly are you importing your hands? Aren't you using the HH's saved on your C:\?

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

omfg. 60k roll and your scared for 10/20? This has got to be a joke post.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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omfg. 60k roll and your scared for 10/20? This has got to be a joke post.

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Why? If he's been playing 5/10 6-max as long as he says he's been, 60K roll is definitely possible, but doesn't necessarily means he's should be ready for 10/20 6-max. His skills and confidence may have capped at 5/10.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

Highly unlikely.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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Highly unlikely.

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What is highly unlikely?...

That he's a been a winning player at 5/10 for all this time?

Or that his skill and confidence capped at 5/10?

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

That he can't beat the 10/20.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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That he can't beat the 10/20.

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Ok, I wanted to make sure I understood you... The reason why I chimed in is because I can relate to his "wussiness" in going to 10/20 6-max. I too have a similar win rate at 5/10 6-max as the original poster (around 1.5BB/100) but I don't feel ready to go to 5/10. Are you saying a 5/10 player with an established winrate of 1.5-ish BBs should consider a move upto 10/20?

The reason why I don't feel all that confident in going to 10/20 is mainly because I tried those games on and off along side my regular 5/10 games. I don't know the exact hand count but I probably accumulated aroung 40K hands and I'm barely even. I've ran bad over 40K hands at 5/10 so I know that this isn't a definitive indication of my potential at 10/20, but what I've noticed during those 40K hands is that I was "scared" to play my regular game in 10/20 and I was more sensitive to the swings... way way more so than I was when I moved from 1/2 6-max to 5/10 6-max. When I made that move, I skipped 2/4 and 3/6 for the most part and I was able to adapt to 5/10 relatively easily.

But for some reason, the move from 5/10 to 10/20 seems MUCH harder for me and I can relate completely with the original poster. It'll probably be another month before I take another stab at 10/20, but each time I do so, I get the feeling that perhaps I've capped out at 5/10.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

Since I play 3/6, I really don't know how much harder the 10/20 6-max is compared to the 5/10 6-max. So I don't know what your automatic BB/100 reduction will be in moving up levels. But with the size of your roll, the fact you have a guaranteed income with your job, rake back, and your amount of experience you definitely should be playing higher.

Feeney mentions in his book that you should be playing the next higher level up as soon as you are able to. Playing higher gets you out of your comfort zone and challenges your game. It magnifies the strengths and weaknesses of your game. It basically forces you to grow. In any form of competition, there's always the tendency to "play to the level of your competition". I play sand volleyball doubles competitively and the only way for me to really improve is to go out there and get my ass kicked by guys who are better than me. My ego hates losing and doing so on a regular basis forces me to work harder so I stop losing. If I just play against competition at or below my level, I'm stuck playing the same game and never grow as a player.

You have to reexamine why you're playing poker. I tell people who are interested in making money playing limit poker to focus on 2 things: enjoy playing poker, and focus on constantly improving. The other things take care of themselves. So, why are YOU playing? For fun? Additional income? To make as much money as possible? Figure out your poker goals. Also, my advice would be to focus on the 2 things I just mentioned.


Chris

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

Moving up to $10-20-Prerequisite BB/100 in $5-10 6MAX??

El Diablo makes some good comments in that thread.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

Depends what your goals are...

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Feeney mentions in his book that you should be playing the next higher level up as soon as you are able to. Playing higher gets you out of your comfort zone and challenges your game. It magnifies the strengths and weaknesses of your game. It basically forces you to grow. In any form of competition, there's always the tendency to "play to the level of your competition".

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Feeney assumes you want to improve as a poker player. I have built my 7k BR from a 10$ bonus when i first learned to play last October. I have put in 2k hands at 10/20 6MAX this last week and am running well so far. It has definitely forced me to promptly address some shortocomings in my game. My biggest slide so far has been about 85BB. However, even though my roll is a little short I know I have the discipline to move down if neccessary and I want the challenge. I want to take my game to the next level. It sounds like we just have different approaches to BR managemnet.

I guess it all depends on what motivates you...

Honestly though I'd say it sounds like your a wuss. (You asked.)

But the real question is, "Are you having fun where you are at?"

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

With a 12K bankroll I tried 5/10 6max (but not at Party - at Prima and Pokerroom - my Party skins rakeback is terrible) - lost about 80BBs, but I felt completely lost and frustrated - so I'm back to bonus-chasing mode for a while.

Even with this - it might be worth a shot - and if you feel lost, then step back down.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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I haven't kept track in awhile because pokertracker is so labor intensive

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I stopped reading here.

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Give me a break. So basically what you're saying is that I'm not capable of improving my game, bla bla because I haven't looked at pokertracker in awhile, and thus I shouldn't move up?

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Sorry bro, not meaning to insult but I made the (correct) assumption that you were playing a Party skin. I was, and still am, confused by the fact that you state a pokertracker generated win rate yet state that loading hands is too difficult. All you have to do is set up the auto import and it literally takes one click every time you play to load. That is my only concern here and I know you can play the game because I sat with you many times.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I too am confused by this whole bit about imprting hands from euro.

Is it possible that illiniry doesn't know that the hands are being kept on his computer automatically now??

Is it possible that he didn't get the pokertracker update that allows the auto-import of these hands without having to get them via e-mail (or copying and pasting them)??


Since some people actually DO have regular jobs and actually DON'T live on these forums I suppose it's possible he hasn't heard about it.


I remember when Schneids was doing his $60k in 60 days journal last summer and we told him all about the cool 'new' (at the time) stats-export thing where p-tracker has all the stats exported directly to the party-notes.

Some people just don't keep up with all the new gadgets and toys that are available.
Grannymae just asked a couple weeks ago what 'playerview' is.
I suspect illiniry isn't aware of the ease of importing hands these days.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I am sure you are right which leads to my advice: Follow the forums at least peripherally and use all of these gadgets. Not doing so is -EV and may be the difference in getting from one level to the next.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

Bk,

Would you mind sharing your history of starting poker and timetable for moving up? I know you are very upfront about these things.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I'd also like to hear about how this process went for you.

Anyone else that is currently playing above 15/30 I'd also love to hear from you guys too.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

Other thoughts:


- Are there really THAT many players making 3BB/100 and higher at 5/10 6-max.
1.5/2BB/100 isn't a HUGE win-rate or anything....but if you are pretty comfortable beating the game then I think you should do okay at 10/20.


- My only experience with the 10/20 6-max was when I played 20k or so hands there in about 4 days to win the Party till you cruise things (get enough points in a week and win a seat on the cruise).
I had NEVER played 10/20 6-max before that...and haven't since. I was just hoping to break-even there...if I had a down-dwing at the start I would have had to give it up and head back to 5/10.


Over my 20k hands there I finished -30BB's or so. This was also my low point of the entire week and I believe I was playing less than optimally by this point.
My high-point was +150BB's.


While some of the players were better....and other that weren't were just more aggressive...I found enough V-70, R-40 type donks to convince me that these games ARE ineed beatable. And there certainly were enough passive V-40 players.
But, like the 15/30 full games, the good players at the table DO get in the way.


If you can get comfortable with the swings involved I do believe the 10/20 6-max games are VERY beatable for someone with a decent 6-max game.


If I had a 60k roll I know I would be testing the waters there or at 15/30.
And I know I will be doing this BEFORE I build my roll up that large.


I encourage you to give them a try again.

Even if it takes just playing tight on a 10/20 table on the weekends to get comfortable with it while also reducing the swings.

This will get you off of my 5/10 games so that I can build my roll even faster and hopefully join you up there.
But it is also the right thing for you to do as well.


Although if you wanted to take some time to learn all about this auto-importing to PT as well as the GT+ or PV stuff that you don't seem to be taking advantage of then I could understand why you might want to do that too.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I don't know how long ago he did this, as the games are probably getting progressively tougher, but Nikla had a 4.6BB/100 over like 80k hands.

The game appears to be beatable.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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- Are there really THAT many players making 3BB/100 and higher at 5/10 6-max.
1.5/2BB/100 isn't a HUGE win-rate or anything....but if you are pretty comfortable beating the game then I think you should do okay at 10/20.

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Microbob, I respect your opinion as always (so I won't curse you out [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]), I was just thinking the following, (i) win rate should be higher shorthanded (ii) with amount of hands to figure "true win rate" coupled with shaky stat keeping, 1.5 could easily be 1 or 2 or even wider, (iii) the higher the win rate the lower the risk of ruin all other things equal.

No idea how many people are beating the game for that much but one of the best 15 players told me a win rate of 2.4-2.5 or so was in the top 2% of the full 15.

I perhaps should have caveated all of my comments to say I have never played the 10-20 6 max! I play some 15-30 6 max.

I just think (and this is not at all directed at the op) that people plateau at different levels for many reasons (i) that is how far their talent will take them (ii) playing higher gets them out of their comfort zone (iii) they don't keep working to improve their games.

Conversely, people who move up very quickly might well find themselves in dangerous water with only a broken life vest. We hear about the sucess stories, but rarely the failures.

Lastly, back to the Roy Cooke example, someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Clarkmeister (whose game I respect incredibly and immensely) says Mr. Cooke is a better player than him. I don't know what levels Roy Cooke is playing but in Real Poker II you see him as low as 20-40.

Just some random thoughts with no definitive conclusion really.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

you dont have to go broke by moving up. everyone needs to find their peak so they can exploit it. you may ensure that you end up going broke from inflation if you dont play higher.
at least find your max number of games you can play and max out win rate.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

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you dont have to go broke by moving up. everyone needs to find their peak so they can exploit it. you may ensure that you end up going broke from inflation if you dont play higher.
at least find your max number of games you can play and max out win rate.

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Totally agree!

The constant assertion that you need to play 100K hands at a given level is ridiculous. If a B+M pro were to attempt this it would take him 1.6 years of 40 hour weeks with no vacation to play 100K hands. Playing 4+ tables makes you learn a lot less from each individual hand as well.

There is a reason that Peter_rus and a few other respected posters around here reccomend playing 1-2 tables, especially when first moving up. Peter actually I believe reccomends moving up to a new level at 200BB and dropping back if you drop to 100BB--very aggressive. Course thats how he made 100K in his first year or so--if I am remembering right.

Play your hands, actually pay atention to them and play them well. Exercise a little common sense when it comes to BR management and you'll be fine. For winning players its not like you deposited the whole amount of your BR. Its winnings for many of us so feel free to actually risk some of it. Its the only way I've learned. You'll feel pretty horrible occassionally if you see 1/3 to 1/2 of your roll disappear cause you suck--but you will for sure know where you need to improve. The games are so soft right now it does seem a bit like burning money if you aren't trying to step it up and take your game to the next level.

Re: How much of a risk averse wuss am I? Won\'t move up to 10/20....
 

I've been asked by a number of posters to do this...and I got started on it awhile back and haven't finished it yet. I'll try to get it done soon enough and try to remember to PM you about it.