just don\'t get it
 

5-10 NL on UB recently.

having played a while, i and villian are both at about 2k. UTG + 2, i get
9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]call
villian calls along with button, 5 players to flop:

8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]j [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]q: [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checks to villian who moves all in for over 2k into a $50 pot! obviously instacall to see him turn over

a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he added insult to injury by adding a k to his low [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the turn.

i am now simply venting after beginning the post wondering if he had some sort of deep poker insight i wasn't privvy to. i am just amazed by someone who seemed to be saavy making such an unbelievably bad play and getting paid off.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

You have to give him credit for a set or some sort of monster draw that point. Meaning that you know you're gambling a huge amount when you call even though you have the nuts.

Turns out he had the double gutshot and flush draw so with his 14 outs he was actually the favorite to win/chop (notice 2 of his outs chop with you). He had the best possible draw against you.

I'm never very eager to toss a coin for 2K. It could have been even worse if he had the 9T of clubs to freeroll on you.

If I know villian to be a capable and thinking player, I lay down the nuts in that situation (have done it many times in Omaha). I lay down not because I fear the pure nuts, 9/T of clubs, but rather because I fear I may be up against a hand I'm flipping a coin with. Lose the money you limped in with and keep playing.

Also, and this deserves mentioning, if you know your opponent is multi-tabling and suspect he might have mistakingly bet the 2000 into the wrong table, then you can more comfortably call this bet. But without the chance that he misclick or bet by accident, I'm folding.

Hope this helps, and sorry you ended on the wrong side of the coin toss.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

If you are folding the nuts you should move down in limits.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

well if he is either a 50/50 or up against the pure nuts whats wrong with folding ?

I wouldnt like to be up against anyone of these, but with villians action these hands make more sense than a set.

ATc
KTc
T9c

Re: just don\'t get it
 

thoughtful post from radio head, i thought he had AK clubs. but a bet like that, showing little rationality pot-wise, makes me think he isnt analyzing it as smoothly as you are. he was all-in within 5 seconds. why isn't he considering the chance that someone has hit a set?

Re: just don\'t get it
 

Because he will be up against hands that aren't that much, much, much more often.

There was a post like this a while back. The difference (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the all-in bet came from in position when already faced with a bet from the person holding the nuts. But even then, there wasn't much of an argument.

You are thinking of exactly what this person held and not the range. 12 outs to win and 2 to chop does not make the AT hand a favorite, fyi.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

And fwiw, the comparison with Omaha is abysmal. If you held naked T9 against opponents AcTcQQ, then yes, you are a dog, but the is extreme. This is not Omaha. When you have the nuts in Hold 'Em and someone auto pushes, you are calling. End of story.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

i wouldnt fold it. but our hero got upset over this coinflip where he was a very very small favor. If he feels that his BR is low and cant take this losses, then he shouldnt take it.

I would call also because it made hav ebeen a misstake not likely but it could.
hero is fearing KTc and TJc. two hands.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
well if he is either a 50/50 or up against the pure nuts whats wrong with folding ?

[/ QUOTE ]

you guys are dumb. Not everyoen plays poker like you. For all you know, he has top pair, two pair, and is hoping a "sucker" calls with top pair worse kicker. Some people make a hand (like top pair) and don't want to lose the pot to a flush draw or straight draw. Don't automatically assume your opponents ONLY make this play with the nuts and they are freerolling. Anyone even marginally consider folding (unless you are playing out of your bankroll), should seriously step down in the limits.

One time the flop was unraised in a 7way pot. Some guy held A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop was 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and he led the flop for 3x pot size (and was raped by a flopped flush)

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]

You are thinking of exactly what this person held and not the range. 12 outs to win and 2 to chop does not make the AT hand a favorite, fyi.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ofcourse i didnt mean ATc was a favorite but calling that bet i wouldnt like villian to have it.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

Ty for calling me dumb. jackass.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

Hero is fearing no hand other than Tc9c. Any other hand and he is the favorite. What are you smoking?

Re: just don\'t get it
 

this wasn't a rationally played hand on his part on any level. for all i know his 6 year old just got on the CPU while villan was in the bathroom. very tough to ascribe perfect rationality with 10c9c clubs when perfect rationality dictates playing the hand quite differently.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

dont know why but i got KTc to be a small favorite.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

I was incorrect, AcTc and KcTc gives villain 14 clean outs which accounts for 50% and that other 3% is running T9 for the chop. Doesn't change a lot though.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
5-10 NL on UB recently.


i am now simply venting after beginning the post wondering if he had some sort of deep poker insight i wasn't privvy to. i am just amazed by someone who seemed to be saavy making such an unbelievably bad play and getting paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isnt an unbelievable bad play.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=898238
pokenum -h 9d td - ac tc -- 8c jd qc
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Qc 8c Jd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Td 9d 474 47.88 445 44.95 71 7.17 0.515
Ac Tc 445 44.95 474 47.88 71 7.17 0.485

Re: just don\'t get it
 

thanks. didn't realize i had played the hand face up and he had his trusty odds calculator at his side.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

and nevermind his decision to push there under the magical scenario i referenced on a coin flip.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was incorrect, AcTc and KcTc gives villain 14 clean outs which accounts for 50% and that other 3% is running T9 for the chop. Doesn't change a lot though.

[/ QUOTE ]

well with KTc should willian have 2 nines 4 aces and 9 clubs ?
For the win that is.
i get it too 15 clean outs.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
thanks. didn't realize i had played the hand face up and he had his trusty odds calculator at his side.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeh, but he knows he is ahead of everything except a set or your nut straigth. A set will fear the nut straigth and probably fold here, and the problem with playing on is that hitting a flush or straigth will probably not get paid to much.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

so again, under the circumstances, he makes that bet not knowing if one opponent has the nut straight and another (or hell 2) have trips, and this isn't an unbelievably bad play?

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
so again, under the circumstances, he makes that bet not knowing if one opponent has the nut straight and another (or hell 2) have trips, and this isn't an unbelievably bad play?

[/ QUOTE ]

its incredible bad if you ask me.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks. didn't realize i had played the hand face up and he had his trusty odds calculator at his side.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be such an ass. That poster is just giving you the facts about the "unbelievably bad play" your opponent made; he didn't cause a club to fall on the turn.

SpaceAce

Re: just don\'t get it
 

folding the flop will greatly decrease your variance.

it sounds like that is what you're after.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

One of your aces is a club.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

i think it's an incredibly bad play since he probably could have gotten some more money in the pot with close to the same folding equity (i.e. everything but a straight). who wants to win 50 bucks with that monster?

Re: just don\'t get it
 

space, the thing that was annoying about the post was that he acts as if the hand was played face up and he only had one potential caller to attend to. easily could have been 2pr or a set as well, at which point his odds of winning don't look so bright. his best shot was to HOPE someone calls with the nut flush and he gets all his money in with a coinflip.

i appreciate all the input on the hand. im now ready to bury the dead b/c, as coughlin's law clearly states, they stink up the joint.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
5-10 NL on UB recently.

having played a while, i and villian are both at about 2k. UTG + 2, i get
9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]call
villian calls along with button, 5 players to flop:

8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]j [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]q: [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checks to villian who moves all in for over 2k into a $50 pot! obviously instacall to see him turn over

a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he added insult to injury by adding a k to his low [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the turn.

i am now simply venting after beginning the post wondering if he had some sort of deep poker insight i wasn't privvy to. i am just amazed by someone who seemed to be saavy making such an unbelievably bad play and getting paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's one way to solve the problem of playing a big draw with deep stacks. A bit extreme though.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

this hand is pretty interesting from the odds standpoint that he was about even with you. what if though villain pushed 2k into $50 and another guy coldcalled infront of you? still an easy call with the nuts? i dont know

Re: just don\'t get it
 

If he considers that he IS a coinflip against the nuts and he figures his implied odds are terrible if his draw comes through on the turn, this push isnt so bad...Think about it...He gets all his money in on a coinflip, and most of the time he won't even be called...

Sorry to say, but it looks like this might be +EV for him...

Re: just don\'t get it
 

This forum has sunk to complete rubbish lately, thanks in large part to pointless posts like yours.

Do not come here for sympathy. This is not a church. We don't want to hear your confessionals.

Do not look for justification. There is none. The process is stochastic. Deal with it.

Why did this happen to you? Why did you lose with the nuts? It happens to all of us. You are not special. Get over it.

If you fold there, you should not be playing poker. In a larger sense, if you fold there, you will never succeed in anything you do in life. Both poker and life are about taking calculated risks, and if you expect to rise to the top by playing it safe you're in for a nasty surprise. Take the best situations you can find and seize hold of them.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you fold there, you should not be playing poker. In a larger sense, if you fold there, you will never succeed in anything you do in life. Both poker and life are about taking calculated risks, and if you expect to rise to the top by playing it safe you're in for a nasty surprise. Take the best situations you can find and seize hold of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

yo man, i never considered folding and beyond the obvious sour grapes, it was an unusual hand that has obviously generated interest beyond the boo-hoo woe is me variety. thanks though. either way, i dont give a D A M what sort of post you THINK you're entitled to.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you fold there, you should not be playing poker. In a larger sense, if you fold there, you will never succeed in anything you do in life. Both poker and life are about taking calculated risks, and if you expect to rise to the top by playing it safe you're in for a nasty surprise. Take the best situations you can find and seize hold of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

No, you're missing the point of my post. That's precisely the problem. This post subsumes nothing beyond sour grapes. To purport otherwise is impudent.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, you're missing the point of my post. That's precisely the problem. This post subsumes nothing beyond sour grapes. To purport otherwise is impudent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes I feel bad for quoting other people's posts without adding anything original, so occasionally I write things without meaning in order to disguise the fact that the only reason I'm posting is that I agree with the post I'm replying to.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

tru dat!

Re: just don\'t get it
 

still instancall. i take made straight against flush draw and trips every day of the week. but maybe im just old fashioned.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
still instancall. i take made straight against flush draw and trips every day of the week. but maybe im just old fashioned.

[/ QUOTE ]

if 2 huge overbet allins in that tiny pot i would suspect you are going to be chopping if you win.

Re: just don\'t get it
 

[ QUOTE ]
One of your aces is a club.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol your right. after 2, 20 hour session in a row with little sleep in beetwen im not the smartest guy on the planet. but then again im never the smartest guy on the planet.